I need help on the communion of saints

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shannin

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I am a Cradle Catholic and I get a lot of questions from my Protestant friends as to why we Catholics pray to our favorite Saints. They’ve given comments to me such as, “It says in the Bible not to pray to the dead”. How do I appropriately respond to them? I’m ashamed to say this, but all I know is that we do. I don’t really know why. :confused:
 
When someone is going out of town, we’ll ask others to pray for their safety… or if you have a sick relative, you might ask a friend to pray for your family member… we do the same with the saints. If we can ask a friend here on Earth to pray for us… what does it hurt to ask someone who lives in Heaven with God?

I’d argue that the saints are much more alive than we are down here on Earth! Here are some tracts from Catholic Answers that have excellent responses to your question:

Praying to the Saints

The Intersession of the Saints
 
Thank you so much. This really helped me & I hope it helps other Cradle Catholics when they read your reply. What a beautiful vision it must have been to see the Saints in Heaven offering our prayers to the Lord in the form of golden bowls of incense. BLESSINGS TO YOU.

Sharon
 
First off praying to saints isn’t the same as praying to God. Catholics don’t pray to them. Catholics ask saints to pray for us. No Christian should have a problem with asking someone to pray for us. One question is are the saints dead. In the Gospels Jesus is vistited by Moses and Elija. That would be difficult if they were dead. Matthew 22:32 " ‘I am the God of the Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? [Exodus 3:6] He is not God of the dead, but of the living. In Revelation 5:8 The twenty-four hold golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saint; It would be hard for the elders in heaven to know the prayers of the saints on earth unless they heard them. Hebrews 11 lists OT saints. Then Hebrews 12:1 says …“since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses…” The saints cheer for us in heaven. Also, the word pray doesn’t always mean talking to God" Another meaning of “pray” is “to ask” For example, Pray tell how are ya doin’ this morning?" (Better if spoken in an Irish accent) I’ve also read “Pray me this” It’s an antiquated meaning in American English, but it is a meaning none the less.

Only God answers prayer. Debating communion of the saints Protestants will often quote the scripture that we have but one intercessor, Jesus. Few would hesitate to ask a fellow Christian for prayer. Simply, that’s what asking for the intercession of saints is. Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 imply that’s what the saints in heaven are for.

What separates praying to saints from talking to the dead is we don’t expect a saint to speak to us directly. It’s not a seance. Are the saints actually dead? No. Does asking someone to pray for us take anything away from Jesus? No.
 
Look up the following passages to see the concept of the communion of saints (all those who have been sanctified and set apart for God are mystically united in Christ) in action.

In regards to believers (dead or alive):

Job intercedes to God for his friends while living (Job 42:7-20). Jeremiah the prophet intercedes for his people and the holy city even in death (2 Maccabees 15:12-16). The rich man pleads to Abraham in death for help (Luke 16:19-31). Paul prays to God to show mercy upon the soul of his deceased friend Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18). The elders in heaven receive the prayers of the saints which they carry in golden bowls (Revelation 5:8). The martyrs in heaven appeal to God to bring His justice upon the world (Revelation 6:9-10)

In regards to angels refer to these instances:

While wrestling with an angel, Jacob requests a blessing from him (Genesis 32:22-32). In his death bed, Jacob recalls the angel and prays that he bless his children (Genesis 48:15, 16). Joshua bows down and honors an angel from God that was sent to help which reveals that angels are concerned with human affairs (Joshua 5:13-15). An angel intercedes before God for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah (Zechariah 1:7-17). John informs us that God allows angels to receive our prayers and to mix them with incense at the altar in heaven before Him (Revelation 8:3, 4; see also Tobit 12:12).
 
Just my 2 cents’ worth:

Our relationship to Jesus Christ extends to the entire Family of God. The saints in heaven are alive, not dead. They have not been separated from the Body of Christ of which we saints on earth are also members. The idea that the saints are dead and cannot hear us, are not concerned about us, nor are able to help us by their prayers clearly goes against all Scripture teaches about our membership in the Body and the benefit of the prayers of those in the Body for one another.

From 1 Cor 12: “Now the body is not a single part, but many . . . there are many parts, yet ONE body. The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I do not need you.”
. . . so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. If [one] part suffers, ALL THE PARTS SUFFER WITH IT; if one part is honored, ALL THE PARTS SHARE ITS JOY."

Clearly, all who are members of the body – whether in heaven or still on earth – have “concern” for ALL the members.

It’s truly a family affair. When we acknowledge Jesus as Our Savior and are born again to new life in Him, we become members of His Body along with those who have gone before us and now share in His glory in heaven. As a side bar, this is why reception of the Eucharist in the Catholic Church is called “Communion,” for indeed it is a true communion with Christ and all who share in His Body.

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, BUT YOU ARE FELLOW CITIZENS WITH THE HOLY ONES AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD

I once heard a beautiful illustration of why we pray to Jesus’ mother which also applies to this topic at hand. It goes something like this:

A poor peasant wanted to show his love for the good kind that ruled his land, but all he had to offer was a worm-eaten, half-rotten apple. He wept to the good queen about his desire to please the king and show his love for him but was despondent that he had nothing better to offer him.

The good queen listened to this faithful servant with great love and pity. She took his apple from him and began carving away the imperfections. When she had finished, the apple was sliced and arranged beautifully on a solid gold platter festooned with jewels and fresh blossoms.

“There now, my son,” said the good queen. “Let us take this gift together to the king.”
 
Hi Shannin,
This is one area of my faith walk that keeps me from attending RCIA. I have spent many hours with priests and apoligists attempting to understand how we communicate with dead people to act as intercessors for us. I believe that some people are in heaven to include Mary, at the same time I believe Jesus is preparing a place for all of us. When our earthly bodies die, some say we go into a sleep until Christ’s return. This could also be considered “purgatory” if you will. That leaves a person’s soul and spirit active and where I also have trouble trying to understand what really happens.

One approach I am taking to better understand the concept of communicating with the Saints is a Jungian Theory about the Collective Unconscious - that universally we are all connected. I have yet to find a Roman Catholic that is studied in psychology and will accept this type of approach. With that, I have no trouble asking a friend to pray for me or my family, now the real question is then through some type of Collective Unconscious can I ask Peter or Paul? I am still working through this as I feel I cannot convert to Roman Cathicism until I can understand the Communion of Saints and a few other areas. I will not be a hypocrite sitting in the pews like so many Roman Catholics that refuse to follow church teachings.

So, don’t feel alone about the confusion of how we speak to the dead - I feel confident that through the Holy Spirit, God hears our prayers - how the intercessors work - I’m still working on it.
 
Well Mick (and Shannin), for starters, we don’t pray to ‘dead people’ - nor does the Bible or Tradition ‘forbid’ praying to those whose earthly bodies are no longer animated (that is, their bodies are lifeless). All who have died in the Faith are alive in Christ - more alive than you or I. Praying (remember, pray means ‘to ask’) to those people who are more alive in Christ than our friends on earth (whom we also pray to everytime we ask them for something - be it a soft drink, help hanging a picture, asking them to pray to God on our behalf, etc.) is certainly a good thing to do. When our earthly bodies die, we do not ‘go to sleep’. We are judged and then we are off to hell (hopefully not), heaven directly (hopefully yes but very unlikely), or heaven by way of purgatory (where we are completely purged of all things that might hinder us from beholding the beatific vision).

The Bible does have a warning about attempting to communicate with those whose bodies are dead at this time for the purpose of gaining insight into the future (necromancy).
 
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Mick:
So, don’t feel alone about the confusion of how we speak to the dead - I feel confident that through the Holy Spirit, God hears our prayers - how the intercessors work - I’m still working on it.
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You might want to try Scott Hahn’s approach when he was on his conversion journey and struggled a bit with this concept. When he began praying the rosary, which he thought was idolotrous and didn’t quite understand it, he began with a prayer to Jesus saying something like “Lord, I hope this prayer to Mary doesn’t offend you, but I don’t intend that. You know my heart and my sincerity in learning the truth. If this is something you do not intend me to do, please show me.” Then he prayed the rosary for a specific intention, put it aside for weeks, and then when the answer to his intention came, he realized God had answered his prayer through Mary’s intercession! :cool:
 
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Sheen:
I once heard a beautiful illustration of why we pray to Jesus’ mother which also applies to this topic at hand. It goes something like this:

A poor peasant wanted to show his love for the good kind that ruled his land, but all he had to offer was a worm-eaten, half-rotten apple. He wept to the good queen about his desire to please the king and show his love for him but was despondent that he had nothing better to offer him.

The good queen listened to this faithful servant with great love and pity. She took his apple from him and began carving away the imperfections. When she had finished, the apple was sliced and arranged beautifully on a solid gold platter festooned with jewels and fresh blossoms.

“There now, my son,” said the good queen. “Let us take this gift together to the king.”
Click to expand...
Thank you for this beautiful illustration! I have heard it said so often that Mary perfects our offerings and prayers, but this really illustrates the point well. Thanks! 👍
 
Just some more thoughts on the subject (some of these things quoted from another website).

All christians belong to the body of Christ, which is the church.
Rom 12:4-5, 1 Cor 12:12-13

There is one body of Christ in Heaven and earth, not two seperate ones. Eph 2:15-16; Eph 4:4

Physical death does not seperate us from the Body of Christ.
Rom 8:38-39

Calling up the dead (Deut 18:10-12) is a sin and has nothing to do with prayer to the saints.

Remember the different meanings of the term pray. Catholics only ask for intercession.

Saints are not dead and in fact are more alive than us and than they were on earth. Mt 22:29-32; (Saints are like angels, which are very much alive)

Past saints had physically died but are alive in heaven (Moses) Mt 17:1-4

Saints do not have the same limitations that we have. 1 Cor 13:12; 1 Cor 15:49; 2 Ptr 1:4; 1 Cor 2:9

Angels and saints, to some extent, know what’s in a person’s heart and mind; Luke 15:7-10, Mt 22:29-30, Heb 12:1

God reveals certain knowledge to angels and saints in Heaven.
Rev 6:9-10, 1 Sam 28:8-19, Lk 16:19-31

Lastly, here is good analogy that’s helpful. If the left hand sticks the right hand of the body with a needle, first an impulse goes to the head of the body, and then down to the right hand. In the same way the prayers to the saints (right hand) go through the Head of the Body, Jesus Christ. The knowledge is not of their own power, but only the power of Jesus.
 
Sometimes people get the idea that “pray to” means the same as “to worship.” It doesn’t. Prayer is just our communication, to God, or to the saints. Worship is given only to God.

I’m sure that many of St. Paul’s contemporaries asked for his prayers during his time on earth. Why should they not continue to ask for his prayers when he is in heaven? Can we not pray for each other, no matter where we are?

JimG
 
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