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Ben_Sinner
Guest
If he was unchanging, wouldn’t it be impossible for him to create new things? Creating requires a change of a pattern.
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F
fisherman_carl
Guest
I don’t see why he couldn’t create something if he already has the power to do it. No change needed if he already has what it takes.
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mikekle
Guest
Ive always thought the wide variety of life forms that have existed on this planet alone is proof of how creative our God is, I mean, look at the dinosaurs, if we had not found their bones, Id bet most people would not believe such creatures ever existed…on the surface it just seems too fantastic/ too different.
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
I would say He is unchanging in the way He is always changing things!
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Wesrock
Guest
God is immutable in that nothing can add or take away from him. Thomism argues that God essence is infinite existence itself. Every mode of creation is a limited participation in existence, and thus a limited participation in the existence that God is fully.
As such, limited modes of existence itself are not of a different type of existence, but the same great act of being that God is. (This is not to say we are parts of God. If God were an infinitely large cherry pie, we are not parts of that cherry pie. But neither are we a different type of pie, like pecan. We are our own cherry pies, individual pies but the same type of pie as God. Anyone else getting hungry?)
As such, all of creation is of the same thing as God: Existence. None of creation is non-existence. Thus God didn’t have to go outside of himself to come up with new beings. He just had to limit what he already is.
I’m being redundant now, aren’t I? To be eternal is not to be subject to any measure of time. It doesn’t mean God experiences an infinite number of years. It is to be outside of any temporal sequence altogether, not just time as we experience it but to be on some higher dimensional time, but time altogether. Therefore, all of creation is to an eternal being all part of one great NOW for him. Dependent on him, sure, but after him temporally? I don’t believe we can say that, for how can there be an after if time did not exist? If there is no time, there is no before, there is no after, it is all just present. And so, since God is not bound or moving in time, he is not changing.
As such, limited modes of existence itself are not of a different type of existence, but the same great act of being that God is. (This is not to say we are parts of God. If God were an infinitely large cherry pie, we are not parts of that cherry pie. But neither are we a different type of pie, like pecan. We are our own cherry pies, individual pies but the same type of pie as God. Anyone else getting hungry?)
As such, all of creation is of the same thing as God: Existence. None of creation is non-existence. Thus God didn’t have to go outside of himself to come up with new beings. He just had to limit what he already is.
I’m being redundant now, aren’t I? To be eternal is not to be subject to any measure of time. It doesn’t mean God experiences an infinite number of years. It is to be outside of any temporal sequence altogether, not just time as we experience it but to be on some higher dimensional time, but time altogether. Therefore, all of creation is to an eternal being all part of one great NOW for him. Dependent on him, sure, but after him temporally? I don’t believe we can say that, for how can there be an after if time did not exist? If there is no time, there is no before, there is no after, it is all just present. And so, since God is not bound or moving in time, he is not changing.
U
Usagi
Guest
That created things change doesn’t mean that God changes.
Don’t think of God as creating one thing and then another, or one thing over here and one thing over there. God is omnipresent and eternal. Space and time are themselves things that He created.
Don’t think of God as creating one thing and then another, or one thing over here and one thing over there. God is omnipresent and eternal. Space and time are themselves things that He created.
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fisherman_carl
Guest
I am wondering if God sees past, present and future all at once. Or if time is an illusion and the only thing that exists is the present moment, even for God. The problem I have with the former is that God would have to see an infinite number of events in the future. That seems to be, if not a logical impossibility, a practical impossibility. That would require an infinite number of things in God’s mind. It seems more intuitive to position God seeing only what actually exists right now, and using his insight to predict the future.
The b theory of time seems to position an infinite amount of events concurrently in existence along the time line. This seems to me to be impossible to me as well. How could you have an infinite number of things? You could have a potential infinite, but an actual infinite could never be reached. No matter what number you arrived at it would still be less than infinite.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
God is definitely outside time, and can see everything past present and future. We only see things through our tiny lifespan in time through our limited 5 senses. We cannot possibly even imagine what God sees. That is why it seems so impossible to you and me. We just don’t have the ability to understand things like God does.
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oldcelt
Guest
If a deity is truly out of time, then that same deity cannot be omnipresent. The very definition of omnipresence s to be at at places, at all times.
An omnipresent deity that exists out of time is a logical inconsistency.
Jphn
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mikekle
Guest
Thats true, but we must keep in mind, God is fully aware of our time, how it works and how we view ‘time’. He is aware that we cannot understand his version of ‘time’ either, this is why I think all bible verses dealing with time are in OUR definition of it, I mean, after all, why would he expect us to understand or even speculate about his definition? If WE are the intended reader, any mention of time is referring to OUR time.
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Wesrock
Guest
God cannot see things that have not been, at least that is how Saint Thomas understood it. However, as an eternal being, He would know events that happen ten years from now in the same great NOW in which He experiences the present, and all other moments. That is how God knows the future, not because it has not happened yet, but precisely because in the way He experiences things (insofar as we can talk about it), it IS right now. Now, if He were to cut off time in ten years, He could know nothing after. For if it never is, He does not have that intimate knowledge of it, or what we as beings with free will would do, at the least.
This reminds me of Saint Augustine’s own struggles. For the longest time, even after he was leaving Manicheism, Augustine envisioned God as some great substance, pervading all space. That is not true. God is pure spirit. He is not within space or time as we know it. He has no material to bind him to space or time. But it’s precisely in the knowing that it can be said that He is present. And furthermore, God sustains all existence. In that aspect, He can be said to be present in that He is the first cause of all things, sustaining them, keeping them in being. Not through any physical contact on His part, but simply by willing it.
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fisherman_carl
Guest
I think we have to define what we mean by saying God is outside time. Because time is associated with change. And, if God is the unchanged changer then there is no measure of time in God. However, the problem is what happens if you stick a clock next to the unchanged changer? Still no change happens to him. But, the clock is ticking. The clock is changing with respect to God. God was unchanged at time t=0. He was unchanged at t=1, t=2, etc. Ad infinitum. However, events are occurring in sequence alongside God. The clock is counting. This means time is occurring relative to God. If there was no clock we could envision there being no time. But with the clock it’s hard to say God is not at least subject to external change of the clock. Now if we consider creation to be that clock does that put God in time relative to it?
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fisherman_carl
Guest
In the beginning there was the unchanged changer. And He said ‘let there be change’. And then there was change.
When you think about it if God is the unchanged changer then the only thing he could have created outside himself is things that change. Since within himself is all that is constant. Anything other than himself would have to be changing.
When you think about it if God is the unchanged changer then the only thing he could have created outside himself is things that change. Since within himself is all that is constant. Anything other than himself would have to be changing.
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fisherman_carl
Guest
When you say God is outside time is that just a fancy way of saying God does not change and is therefore not subject to time? Or are you saying that God transcends time like being in some higher dimension? .If the latter Could God have his own time?
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
He doesn’t operate by our sense of time. We have to comprehend everything in the short space of our lives on earth (after we die, it will be different). God exists in eternity, (yes something like another dimension, I think), but like I said, as a human, I don’t think it is possible to completely understand how God lives in eternity yet sees our whole lives. Consider the life of a gnat: the gnat might consider his life very long, but to us it is just an instant of time. But I think God doesn’t see us as gnats, he cares about our short lives very dearly. So perhaps He is both inside and outside of time. It’s a mystery!
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Wesrock
Guest
Time itself is a creation. God is not subject to time. And not just our time, but to any dimension of time. Time does not pass for God. A clock sitting “next” to him? So far as he would see it, the clock, and every moment of its existance and ticking of the hands, exists only in his now. And his now does not disappear and become replaced by a new now. There is only one now for God, and all of time exists in it. Not before it happens from our perspective, but as it happens. But to God, it all feeds into his one now.
Time still needs to unfold for God for him to have knowledge of it. We perceive that unfolding. To God, that unfolding would all be simultaneous, all part of the same instant as the rest of his eternity, an instant which never passes for him. That said, it would not necessarily be muddled in his mind. He would have knowledge of each and every moment of time, know how they relate to each other. I can’t declare how God knows, my human mind is too small to grasp such a thing, but we can say that order is not all temporal.
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fisherman_carl
Guest
Where does this idea that God is in an external now and sees all of time at once come from? Is it just to preserve the doctrine of immutability? It would seem to me that God could be in time and still be immutable. Time is a measure of change. Since God doesn’t change, even if he was in time relative to the clock he would not change.
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fisherman_carl
Guest
So do you subscribe to the b theory of time which sees the entire time line as existing in reality concurrently? Or do you see only the present moment in existence on the time line, but God is somehow able to see the events on the time line that do not yet exist?
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Wesrock
Guest
The latter. Molinism, I think, would subscribe to B theory. Thomism does not. It has not happened yet. It is not already in existence.
God can only see what does exist. However, whatever does exist, at any point, is perceived by God simultaenously in his existence as it happens. So God, can see all of time right now. But not because he’s seeing the future from his perspective.
I’m not sure how I can explain this better in my own words. W. Norris Clarke’s The One and the Many is a good overview of Thomistic thought and is what finally distinguished Molinism from Thomism to me when it comes to this type of thinking. I also enjoyed books 10 through 13 of Augustine’s Confessions. He’s not Thomist, of course, but his thoughts on what it means to be eternal were enlightening.
If I have the opportunity I will provide some quotes this weekend on the subject. Maybe by PM as it’s related but not directly on topic. I may not be able to do so, though.
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DCNBILL
Guest
Since we are not God nor have His perspective of creation we have to speak in analogies. If you look at it as if all of creation, from the beginning of time to the end of time is laid out before Him like a huge diorama. God has all of eternity to dwell on any part of time that he likes. The “all of time” is eternally before God, this would be that eternal instant.
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