If we assume God doesn't exist, where does Christian morality stand?

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Broadly speaking, Christian morality depends upon a series of antecedent claims - that God exists, He exists in the manner that Christians believe, that God has designed the world and human nature in such a way, that God has given certain commandments to obey, etc. (This list isn’t complete or perhaps even correct on all points, example-wise)

Consider for a few moments a counterfactual hypothesis - God doesn’t exist and eliminative materialism is a correct metaphysics. (For the moment, lay aside any objections that this wouldn’t be possible. Just humor me. Pretend that the atheist position is correct) Under this hypothosis, is Christian morality as we know it still tenable? I’m curious what everyone thinks. Are the things we consider good/evil or right/wrong now still good/evil or right/wrong under the counterfactional hypothosis?
 
Consider for a few moments a counterfactual hypothesis - God doesn’t exist and eliminative materialism is a correct metaphysics.
Just a clarification : Do you mean eliminative materialism, or possibly reductive materialism?
 
Hard to answer a counterfactual question, because all the evidence for the answer is taken from a universe in which God does exist.

Of course, not everyone believes in God. I think atheists generally point to social contract theory and evolutionary development to underpin godless systems of morality, and none of these systems–if they were the true basis of morality–point to a specifically Christian ethos. Indeed, have you not seen how many “Christian” ideas are attacked as immoral?

If, however, we are talkng about universal, objective morality that exists in the same way that the laws of physics exist, then there really isn’t any answer to your question. For God did create the Heavens and the Earth, including its morality.
 
If you view morality as a system of beliefs held to make society viable, without the existence of God, or the hope for heaven, would it still be moral to …

Cure the sick,

Feed the hungry,

Clothe the naked,

Care for widows and orphans,

Visit the imprisoned,

Not steal,

Loan without asking anything in return,

Not look lustfully on other people,

Forgive offenses,

Not live in anger,

Love your neighbor and your enemy?

I guess any moral system could be argued against, but this would be a hard one.
 
Just a clarification : Do you mean eliminative materialism, or possibly reductive materialism?
This is what I get for writing late into the night. Also it’s been awhile so I might have mixed up terms.

What I meant was a case where all phenomena has a naturalistic, material explanation. But now that I think more, I’m not sure if this atheistic counterfactual hypothesis requires that strong of an assertion. Maybe it does… but I think we can discard that particular part.
 
Just a clarification : Do you mean eliminative materialism, or possibly reductive materialism?
There are strong arguments to be made that reductive materialism necessarily becomes eliminative by consistent application of its grounding assumptions. This is a topic for another thread, however.
 
Thank you for your answers! Let me perhaps share why I ask. This might give some insight into further answers.

What got me thinking was wondering if, let’s suppose, some day we can demonstrate that God doesn’t exist. (Impossible, I know. Just bear with the example) Now, after such a discovery, would Christian moralists still hold their moral beliefs? It would be doable to craft a moral theory that would return most (if not all) points of Christian morality. I was wondering more about if people could say “on religious grounds, I believed X was wrong. I still believe X is wrong though.” Clearly things like murder, theft, rape, etc. are pretty easy to say yes we would still thing they’re wrong. I was thinking more about some of the more sticky points that get a lot of argument these days.
 
Consider for a few moments a counterfactual hypothesis - God doesn’t exist and eliminative materialism is a correct metaphysics. (For the moment, lay aside any objections that this wouldn’t be possible. Just humor me. Pretend that the atheist position is correct) Under this hypothosis, is Christian morality as we know it still tenable? I’m curious what everyone thinks. Are the things we consider good/evil or right/wrong now still good/evil or right/wrong under the counterfactional hypothosis?
For us to give a proper answer to the question I think we need to further the hypothosis to the extent that not only is the atheist position correct but it has always been the only position. I think this is the position we have to take because I hear it stated quite often that “I do not need to believe in God to be a moral person”. The only reason this is possible is because this person uses the rules of society to determine what is right or wrong. And I think you would agree that these rules of society have evolved from a God fearing people.

So this leads us to the real question of if God never existed in our society “Are the things we consider good/evil or right/wrong now still good/evil or right/wrong under the counterfactional hypothosis?”

I would argue that is a great big no. I think this is a valid answer. Without the Church how would we be willing to accept what the Natural Moral Law is? Just look at society today, even with the influence of the Church, we can’t accept the definition of what the Natural Moral Law is. It is funny because we shouldn’t need God to tell us the following 2 examples are wrong, but even with him present in society we can still ignore the correct definition.

Humanity can so easily ignore the fact that biology is crystal clear that at the moment of conception (also known as fertilization), what occures can legitimately only be described as human life. Yet we abort and murder, which is morally wrong according to society, millions of unborn babies.

Also, we now have homosexual marriage doesn’t matter whether society believes it to be right or wrong. It is natural law. Homosexuality does not insure the continuation of the human race. Common sense to me whether we believe God created us or we believe we evolved from apes. If we were created as homosexuals we would have never evolved.

The lack of common sense in our current culture, that is falling away from God is what leads me to the conclusion, if God was never a part of humanity, humanity would not care about what was right or wrong which would mean humanity would not exist today or would not have evolved to the level we are at now.
 
Broadly speaking, Christian morality depends upon a series of antecedent claims - that God exists, He exists in the manner that Christians believe, that God has designed the world and human nature in such a way, that God has given certain commandments to obey, etc. (This list isn’t complete or perhaps even correct on all points, example-wise)

Consider for a few moments a counterfactual hypothesis - God doesn’t exist and eliminative materialism is a correct metaphysics. (For the moment, lay aside any objections that this wouldn’t be possible. Just humor me. Pretend that the atheist position is correct) Under this hypothosis, is Christian morality as we know it still tenable? I’m curious what everyone thinks. Are the things we consider good/evil or right/wrong now still good/evil or right/wrong under the counterfactional hypothosis?
If God didn’t exist, we wouldn’t either and we wouldn’t have to worry about morality!! I’m with God, who are you with??? Whose out there for you?? God Bless, Memaw
 
This is what I get for writing late into the night. Also it’s been awhile so I might have mixed up terms.

What I meant was a case where all phenomena has a naturalistic, material explanation. But now that I think more, I’m not sure if this atheistic counterfactual hypothesis requires that strong of an assertion. Maybe it does… but I think we can discard that particular part.
I, personally, do not think there is a conflict between what you are asserting and a belief in God, and following RC Church teaching. Phenomena that is not comprehendible to us as being natural, does not mean that it is not natural. Natural and Supernatural, to me, are just words expressing, “We understand” and “We don’t Understand”.

Do you, as an agnostic, see my point of view as valid?

The spirit of a belief should not be bound by language.
 
Some derivitive of natural law could still be viewed as the basis of ethics. Essentially, what is good for humanity and individuals? You could still reach the same conclusions on abortion, birth control, or same sex relations.

However, it would only be a subjective opinion that we should even care about what is good for us, as in reality it would all be meaningless. And I don’t just mean birth control and same sex relations, but murder, theft, etc… too.
 
Thank you for your answers! Let me perhaps share why I ask. This might give some insight into further answers.

What got me thinking was wondering if, let’s suppose, some day we can demonstrate that God doesn’t exist. (Impossible, I know. Just bear with the example) Now, after such a discovery, would Christian moralists still hold their moral beliefs? It would be doable to craft a moral theory that would return most (if not all) points of Christian morality. I was wondering more about if people could say “on religious grounds, I believed X was wrong. I still believe X is wrong though.” Clearly things like murder, theft, rape, etc. are pretty easy to say yes we would still thing they’re wrong. I was thinking more about some of the more sticky points that get a lot of argument these days.
I’m not a philosopher (nor do I play one on TV), so I don’t know all the jargon and what it means (eliminative materialism, reductive materialism, or that Herman Newticz guy).

I generally believe “on religious grounds, I believed X was wrong. I still believe X is wrong though” would hold true for me*, at least as far as the Second Great Commandment (“Love thy neighbour…”) is concerned; the First (“Love the Lord your God with all your strength…”), not so much. So I would still believe murder and theft to be immoral, but missing Sunday Mass or not worshiping God I would not.

*Assuming that I was still raised the way I was, of course, by Christian parents, who instilled a Christian morality in me.

PS I’ll add a bit more later. I have to cogitate a bit more.
 
Broadly speaking, Christian morality depends upon a series of antecedent claims - that God exists, He exists in the manner that Christians believe, that God has designed the world and human nature in such a way, that God has given certain commandments to obey, etc. (This list isn’t complete or perhaps even correct on all points, example-wise)

Consider for a few moments a counterfactual hypothesis - God doesn’t exist and eliminative materialism is a correct metaphysics. (For the moment, lay aside any objections that this wouldn’t be possible. Just humor me. Pretend that the atheist position is correct) Under this hypothosis, is Christian morality as we know it still tenable? I’m curious what everyone thinks. Are the things we consider good/evil or right/wrong now still good/evil or right/wrong under the counterfactional hypothosis?
I am sympathetic to Rawls’ contractarian ethics. I think the results from that camp are mostly compatible with Christian ethics, and the thought process works under a variety of different metaphysical assumptions. The most important features for it to work are
  1. We are all rational.
  2. There exists a set of rules that perfectly rational beings will agree to be governed by.
 
Thank you for your answers! Let me perhaps share why I ask. This might give some insight into further answers.

What got me thinking was wondering if, let’s suppose, some day we can demonstrate that God doesn’t exist. (Impossible, I know. Just bear with the example) Now, after such a discovery, would Christian moralists still hold their moral beliefs? It would be doable to craft a moral theory that would return most (if not all) points of Christian morality. I was wondering more about if people could say “on religious grounds, I believed X was wrong. I still believe X is wrong though.” Clearly things like murder, theft, rape, etc. are pretty easy to say yes we would still thing they’re wrong. I was thinking more about some of the more sticky points that get a lot of argument these days.
Following this thought process I would say some would and some wouldn’t. I would use the same 2 examples I gave in my last post. If you could prove without a shadow of a doubt that God does not exist we would be in real trouble. You stated “Clearly things like murder, theft, rape, etc. are pretty easy to say yes we would still thing they’re wrong.” I disagree, if you remove Christian morality I think the definition of what these terms means would change. It would only be morally wrong to murder if you murdered a productive member of society. Young people would be up in arms having to pay into care for the elderly.
Another poster made a great list:
If you view morality as a system of beliefs held to make society viable, without the existence of God, or the hope for heaven, would it still be moral to …

Cure the sick,

Feed the hungry,

Clothe the naked,

Care for widows and orphans,

Visit the imprisoned,

Not steal,

Loan without asking anything in return,

Not look lustfully on other people,

Forgive offenses,

Not live in anger,

Love your neighbor and your enemy?

I guess any moral system could be argued against, but this would be a hard one.
I do all of the above because Jesus said this is what it means to be a child of God. If you take God out of the picture I think I would have a real hard time coming up with a reason to sacrifice myself and my family to give to others, when I have to take out loans to put my kids through school.

Just my humble but honest opinion. I am a mere fallible human trying my best to following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

God Bless
 
I do all of the above because Jesus said this is what it means to be a child of God. If you take God out of the picture I think I would have a real hard time coming up with a reason to sacrifice myself and my family to give to others, when I have to take out loans to put my kids through school.

Just my humble but honest opinion. I am a mere fallible human trying my best to following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

God Bless
If we remove God from society, don’t you think that society would come up with pretty much the same moral system (give or take some specifics)?

Humans live together, and in order that society runs smoothly, I think things like murder, theft, and adultery will always be “wrong” and charity will always be “right” because it makes society run smoother…(as I’m writing this, I’m having second thoughts about adultery always being wrong, but I’m holding onto hope!)

I do agree with you, though, from what I understood of your post, that sometimes without a “reward” system, many people would become apathetic. If you look at society today, a lot of people are not charitable, but they’re not necessarily uncharitable either; they just don’t care, but the charitable people are always praised in the media. The people that go out of their way to help other people are made famous, and maybe that’s reward enough…
 
If belief in God never went anywhere past biblical times and no one subscribed to whats right and wrong, I believe we would live in a world where literally anything goes, it would be totally up to the individual as to what is right and what is wrong, I dont think there would be any type of laws or law enforcement, if you thought it was right to kill someone for giving you the wrong change for a soda, that would be their choice and no one would say they were wrong in doing so, if someone thought they deserved a million bucks, they would go take it by force, no one would oppose them or think ill of them for doing so…it would be a very bad world to live in.

It would mostly be a world where the strong survive.

Even if you are the most agnostic person on the planet, you have to admit biblical morals/ laws are good for even a totally secular world, thou shall not kill, not steal, etc benefits everyone, even if they have no beliefs.
 
If belief in God never went anywhere past biblical times and no one subscribed to whats right and wrong, I believe we would live in a world where literally anything goes, it would be totally up to the individual as to what is right and what is wrong, I dont think there would be any type of laws or law enforcement, if you thought it was right to kill someone for giving you the wrong change for a soda, that would be their choice and no one would say they were wrong in doing so, if someone thought they deserved a million bucks, they would go take it by force, no one would oppose them or think ill of them for doing so…it would be a very bad world to live in.

It would mostly be a world where the strong survive.

Even if you are the most agnostic person on the planet, you have to admit biblical morals/ laws are good for even a totally secular world, thou shall not kill, not steal, etc benefits everyone, even if they have no beliefs.
If we remove God from society, don’t you think that society would come up with pretty much the same moral system (give or take some specifics)?

Humans live together, and in order that society runs smoothly, I think things like murder, theft, and adultery will always be “wrong” and charity will always be “right” because it makes society run smoother…(as I’m writing this, I’m having second thoughts about adultery always being wrong, but I’m holding onto hope!)

If you look at society today, where God isn’t as present as he used to be, the majority of people are not charitable, but they’re not necessarily uncharitable either; they just don’t care, but the charitable people are always praised in the media.
 
Broadly speaking, Christian morality depends upon a series of antecedent claims - that God exists, He exists in the manner that Christians believe, that God has designed the world and human nature in such a way, that God has given certain commandments to obey, etc. (This list isn’t complete or perhaps even correct on all points, example-wise)

Consider for a few moments a counterfactual hypothesis - God doesn’t exist and eliminative materialism is a correct metaphysics. (For the moment, lay aside any objections that this wouldn’t be possible. Just humor me. Pretend that the atheist position is correct) Under this hypothosis, is Christian morality as we know it still tenable? I’m curious what everyone thinks. Are the things we consider good/evil or right/wrong now still good/evil or right/wrong under the counterfactional hypothosis?
“No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death: and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.” Thomas Hobbes
 
If we remove God from society, don’t you think that society would come up with pretty much the same moral system (give or take some specifics)?

Humans live together, and in order that society runs smoothly, I think things like murder, theft, and adultery will always be “wrong” and charity will always be “right” because it makes society run smoother…(as I’m writing this, I’m having second thoughts about adultery always being wrong, but I’m holding onto hope!)

If you look at society today, where God isn’t as present as he used to be, the majority of people are not charitable, but they’re not necessarily uncharitable either; they just don’t care, but the charitable people are always praised in the media.
This was attached to my post a second ago, don’t know what happened if there was a glitch or you edited it.

Anyway, I think initially you are correct. However, you can’t remove God from the equation without changing the answer. You even said yourself “(as I’m writing this, I’m having second thoughts about adultery always being wrong, but I’m holding onto hope!)” I would say the same thing about killing someone, but we are already seeing how society is changing the definition on what is really murder. As the other poster mentioned only the strong would survive. Remove God and humanity will, as it already does, replace him with money. It all comes down to the almighty dollar.

I think you also hit the nail on the head with this statement “but they’re not necessarily uncharitable either; they just don’t care”. That statement is what sums it all up and what would eventually be our downfall. That is basically what I was getting at, why would I care when I have my own family to take care of?

Now let’s take it a step further and really think this through, I always try to see the bigger picture. Once it is proven without a shadow of a doubt, as the OP wants us to do, there is no more need for christian churches, or christian organizations. Since I am Catholic let’s go there. The Catholic church is gone, which means so are the Catholic schools, hospitals, food banks and all other Catholic Charities. So even if some people are still willing to be charitable how do we get their money to the poor? I found an old article that stated the Church spends 4.7 billion a year on charities. But this was an extremely low number since it put no value to volunteer hours or non monetary donations.

Anyway, I am sure you see where I am going with this. Take away God and what he stands for and we will be on a slippery slope to the downfall of mankind.
 
If we remove God from society, don’t you think that society would come up with pretty much the same moral system (give or take some specifics)?

Humans live together, and in order that society runs smoothly, I think things like murder, theft, and adultery will always be “wrong” and charity will always be “right” because it makes society run smoother…(as I’m writing this, I’m having second thoughts about adultery always being wrong, but I’m holding onto hope!)

If you look at society today, where God isn’t as present as he used to be, the majority of people are not charitable, but they’re not necessarily uncharitable either; they just don’t care, but the charitable people are always praised in the media.
Except that which is being removed by removing God is the only plausibly ultimate reason for being moral. From then on, individuals will begin to contrive their own, less than moral, purposes.

Once those purposes begin to conflict with each other, the free-for-all starts because there is no way to arbitrate between systems in order to prioritize some over others. Survival or power, perhaps – which will boil down, in the end, to “Whose survival?”

In case you haven’t realized it yet, abortion rights and euthanasia are examples of the empowered staking out their right to determine who will or won’t survive. The change has all been very subtle and supported all along the way by egoistic rationalization – which is why it has been so very effective. Nothing like appealing to the ego to show how right it is to be egoistic.

Humans aren’t predetermined to act morally. It IS an attainable reality, however. What humans do need is an overpowering reason to be moral – one that even overwhelms their egoism. Threats of hellfire only function to keep individuals from being immoral, but that doesn’t amount to a real reason to be moral in the fullest sense. One can absolutely fear hell and still be an egomaniac – a whited sepulchre of morality.

Rational egoism only works when obviously attractive goods are at stake. There is no incentive, though, for an egoist to strive to overcome their moral limitations or their penchant for secretly holding onto their immorality. Courage isn’t a virtue in rational egoism. It puts too much on the line. Self-preservation, including maintenance of one’s support structure or tribe, is as far as egoism can go absent some other principle or motivation to move beyond oneself.

Principles, by themselves, are ineffectual. Love and metanoia are both required, both of which, by definition, have to come from outside the ego shell or from something bigger than it surreptitiously being planted inside the ego by transcendent reality. God become man – the Word and Love of God implanting Himself as a seed in the ego to eventually overpower and resurrect it to be a whole new being. He who loses his life will gain it.

The ego, like Satan, once divided against itself cannot stand - that which is infinite, eternal and necessary will prevail over that which is contingent and transient in spite of all the pretensions and delusions it might entertain bestowing upon itself the absolute power to subsist.
 
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