Incarnation is a false concept

[Bahman]

Here there is the argument:

1. God is changeless
2. Incarnation is simply the union of God and human
3. From (2) we can deduce that we have only God before incarnation and unified God and human after incarnation
4. From (3) we can deduce that God undergo a change upon incarnation
5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that incarnation is a false concept

 

[hasantas]

Here there is the argument:

1. God is changeless
2. Incarnation is simply the union of God and human
3. From (2) we can deduce that we have only God before incarnation and unified God and human after incarnation
4. From (3) we can deduce that God undergo a change upon incarnation
5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that incarnation is a false concept

Yes incarnation is false for God. God is changeless means God is eternal and human is mortal and God never become mortal which is very clear.

 

[o_mlly]

Here there is the argument:

1. God is changeless
2. Incarnation is simply the union of God and human
3. From (2) we can deduce that we have only God before incarnation and unified God and human after incarnation
4. From (3) we can deduce that -]God/-] humanity under-]go/-]went a change upon incarnation
5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that incarnation is a -]false/-] mysterious concept

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

Saint Thomas Aquinas dealt with these precise arguments in his works. Consider reading his Summa contra Gentiles, chapters 40-49. Christians and Muslims can have a good religious argument on this topic, but we can’t be simplistic on the matter.

 

[svid2]

Pax Christi.

Jesus is both God and man, and the man underwent change: was conceived and born, grew and died. God does not and did not change.

The mysteries of the Faith are best explained by expert believers, and I’m not an expert.

God bless.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

I. WHY DID THE WORD BECOME FLESH?

456 With the Nicene Creed, we answer by confessing: “For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit, he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.”

457 The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who “loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins”: “the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world”, and “he was revealed to take away sins”:70

Sick, our nature demanded to be healed; fallen, to be raised up; dead, to rise again. We had lost the possession of the good; it was necessary for it to be given back to us. Closed in the darkness, it was necessary to bring us the light; captives, we awaited a Savior; prisoners, help; slaves, a liberator. Are these things minor or insignificant? Did they not move God to descend to human nature and visit it, since humanity was in so miserable and unhappy a state?71

458 The Word became flesh so that thus we might know God’s love: "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him."72 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."73

459 The Word became flesh to be our model of holiness: “Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me.” "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me."74 On the mountain of the Transfiguration, the Father commands: "Listen to him!"75 Jesus is the model for the Beatitudes and the norm of the new law: "Love one another as I have loved you."76 This love implies an effective offering of oneself, after his example.77

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

II. THE INCARNATION

461 Taking up St. John’s expression, “The Word became flesh”,82 the Church calls “Incarnation” the fact that the Son of God assumed a human nature in order to accomplish our salvation in it. In a hymn cited by St. Paul, the Church sings the mystery of the Incarnation:

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.83

462 The Letter to the Hebrews refers to the same mystery:

Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, Lo, I have come to do your will, O God."84

463 Belief in the true Incarnation of the Son of God is the distinctive sign of Christian faith: "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God."85 Such is the joyous conviction of the Church from her beginning whenever she sings “the mystery of our religion”: "He was manifested in the flesh."86

III. TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN

464 The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.

 

[openmind77]

Here there is the argument:

1. God is changeless
2. Incarnation is simply the union of God and human
3. From (2) we can deduce that we have only God before incarnation and unified God and human after incarnation
4. From (3) we can deduce that God undergo a change upon incarnation
5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that incarnation is a false concept

1. There are three persons in the Godhead - Father, Son and Holy Spirit
2. Incarnation is simply the union of the Son and a human
3. From (2) we can deduce that we have only three persons in the Godhead before incarnation and unified Son and human, plus Father and Holy Spirit after incarnation
4. From (3) we can deduce that the human undergoes a change upon incarnation. The Son still remains the same (he will separate after the death of the human)
5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that concept of incarnation is valid but needs to be adjusted a bit (the separation upon the death)

 

[grannymh]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Please add this key point from CCC 470.

Because “human nature was assumed, not absorbed”, …

 

[grannymh]

This is the proper concept of Incarnation.

Please note the importance of the word Person. The words person and nature are precisely used in Catholicism.

There are three Persons, real Persons, in the divine nature of the Most Holy Trinity. Each Person, Father, Son, Holy Spirit has a divine nature.

A person has a specific nature. A human person is not a dog or a bear because a person has a specific human nature and not a dog nature and not a bear nature. Each Person in the Most Holy Trinity is divine because the specific nature of the Most Holy Trinity is divine. A human person cannot change his nature when it rains. God also has an unchangeable nature.

I realize and accept the fact that a person with a human nature will have difficulty with the concept of three separate Persons having the same single nature which is divine, not human, not dog, etc.,

Jesus Christ is a divine Person. Because His divine nature is greater than a human nature, He can do more things than a human person can. Because Jesus Christ is a divine Person, He can assume human nature which means adding an additional nature to His divine Person. Please note that He is not changing His fundamental nature, He is adding a nature to His Person. His Person assumes a second nature which happens to be a human nature. His Person has a divine nature; therefore, He is capable of assuming a secondary nature per se.

Please note that Jesus Christ assumes human nature as a pure human nature without any kind of sin. Jesus Christ, having a divine nature, does not have to sin in order to assume human nature.

Because Jesus Christ is divine, He does not have to change His nature to human. All He has to do is to take upon Himself (assume) the separate human nature. Assuming a human nature does not require that the Person Jesus Christ change His divine nature to a lower level.

One way to remember the above are these two sentence. God is three Persons in one Nature. Jesus Christ is one Person with two Natures.

 

[utunumsint]

This is the proper concept of Incarnation.

Please note the importance of the word Person. The words person and nature are precisely used in Catholicism.

There are three Persons, real Persons, in the divine nature of the Most Holy Trinity. Each Person, Father, Son, Holy Spirit has a divine nature.

A person has a specific nature. A human person is not a dog or a bear because a person has a specific human nature and not a dog nature and not a bear nature. Each Person in the Most Holy Trinity is divine because the specific nature of the Most Holy Trinity is divine. A human person cannot change his nature when it rains. God also has an unchangeable nature.

I realize and accept the fact that a person with a human nature will have difficulty with the concept of three separate Persons having the same single nature which is divine, not human, not dog, etc.,

Jesus Christ is a divine Person. Because His divine nature is greater than a human nature, He can do more things than a human person can. Because Jesus Christ is a divine Person, He can assume human nature which means adding an additional nature to His divine Person. Please note that He is not changing His fundamental nature, He is adding a nature to His Person. His Person assumes a second nature which happens to be a human nature. His Person has a divine nature; therefore, He is capable of assuming a secondary nature per se.

Please note that Jesus Christ assumes human nature as a pure human nature without any kind of sin. Jesus Christ, having a divine nature, does not have to sin in order to assume human nature.

Because Jesus Christ is divine, He does not have to change His nature to human. All He has to do is to take upon Himself (assume) the separate human nature. Assuming a human nature does not require that the Person Jesus Christ change His divine nature to a lower level.

One way to remember the above are these two sentence. God is three Persons in one Nature. Jesus Christ is one Person with two Natures.

 

[Lucretius]

Here there is the argument:

1. God is changeless
2. Incarnation is simply the union of God and human
3. From (2) we can deduce that we have only God before incarnation and unified God and human after incarnation
4. From (3) we can deduce that God undergo a change upon incarnation
5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that incarnation is a false concept

(4) doesn’t follow from (1). The Son did incarnate, but His Divinity didn’t change by the Incarnation.

Furthermore, I think a Christian can go farther and claim that (3) is false; because God doesn’t change, He was always Incarnated. The reason it seems like His Incarnation had a beginning is because, from our view in time, it did. But because God is outside time, or above corruption/change, He was, is, and will be always Incarnating.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[Bahman]

o_mlly:
We are talking about unity of God and human hence both human and God undergo a change.

 

[Bahman]

Pax Christi.

Jesus is both God and man, and the man underwent change: was conceived and born, grew and died. God does not and did not change.

The mysteries of the Faith are best explained by expert believers, and I’m not an expert.

God bless.

We are talking about incarnation, union of God and human, hence both God and human undergo a change.

 

[Bahman]

) There are three persons in the Godhead - Father, Son and Holy Spirit
2) Incarnation is simply the union of the Son and a human
3) From (2) we can deduce that we have only three persons in the Godhead before incarnation and unified Son and human, plus Father and Holy Spirit after incarnation
4) From (3) we can deduce that the human undergoes a change upon incarnation. The Son still remains the same (he will separate after the death of the human)
5) From (1) and (4) we can deduce that concept of incarnation is valid but needs to be adjusted a bit (the separation upon the death)

(4) doesn’t follow from (3) because the act incarnation affects both God and human. This is about union.

 

[Bahman]

Please add this key point from CCC 470.

Because “human nature was assumed, not absorbed”, …

Do you have three or four persons after incarnation?

 

[Bahman]

This is the proper concept of Incarnation.

Please note the importance of the word Person. The words person and nature are precisely used in Catholicism.

There are three Persons, real Persons, in the divine nature of the Most Holy Trinity. Each Person, Father, Son, Holy Spirit has a divine nature.

A person has a specific nature. A human person is not a dog or a bear because a person has a specific human nature and not a dog nature and not a bear nature. Each Person in the Most Holy Trinity is divine because the specific nature of the Most Holy Trinity is divine. A human person cannot change his nature when it rains. God also has an unchangeable nature.

I realize and accept the fact that a person with a human nature will have difficulty with the concept of three separate Persons having the same single nature which is divine, not human, not dog, etc.,

Jesus Christ is a divine Person. Because His divine nature is greater than a human nature, He can do more things than a human person can. Because Jesus Christ is a divine Person, He can assume human nature which means adding an additional nature to His divine Person. Please note that He is not changing His fundamental nature, He is adding a nature to His Person. His Person assumes a second nature which happens to be a human nature. His Person has a divine nature; therefore, He is capable of assuming a secondary nature per se.

Please note that Jesus Christ assumes human nature as a pure human nature without any kind of sin. Jesus Christ, having a divine nature, does not have to sin in order to assume human nature.

Because Jesus Christ is divine, He does not have to change His nature to human. All He has to do is to take upon Himself (assume) the separate human nature. Assuming a human nature does not require that the Person Jesus Christ change His divine nature to a lower level.

One way to remember the above are these two sentence. God is three Persons in one Nature. Jesus Christ is one Person with two Natures.

I already answered this.

 

[Bahman]

(4) doesn’t follow from (1).

Yes, (4) does follow from (3).

The Son did incarnate, but His Divinity didn’t change by the Incarnation.

Yes, he could keep his divinity without a change. But he changed as a person.

Furthermore, I think a Christian can go farther and claim that (3) is false; because God doesn’t change, He was always Incarnated. The reason it seems like His Incarnation had a beginning is because, from our view in time, it did. But because God is outside time, or above corruption/change, He was, is, and will be always Incarnating.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

Incarnation should be consistent from our view too.

 

[o_mlly]

We are talking about unity of God and human hence both human and God undergo a change.

No. Your argument lacks a rationale for how the timeless and changeless relate to the temporal and changeable.

 

[Bahman]

No. Your argument lacks a rationale for how the timeless and changeless relate to the temporal and changeable.

That is the problem. A timeless and changeless being cannot be related to a temporal and changeable being. Hence incarnation is impossible.

 

[grannymh]

We are talking about incarnation, union of God and human, hence both God and human undergo a change.

May I gently point out that you may be talking about union of God and human; however, that is not exactly what the Catholic Church is talking about.