Individualism and Protestant Tradition

[valient_Lucy]

I posted this on another thread, the Kujo Mary/Isis thread. But I could sense that my post was going to get lost in the shuffle, so I’m going to post it as a seperate thread.
I think that one thing that people need to keep in mind about Protestants, especially Evangelical Protestants, is that they are very very individualist. Think about how they think that people become Christian. Often, they instruct people to pray to Jesus, ask for forgiveness for their sins, and ask Jesus to come into their hearts. After that, they are Christian. What’s important about this is that the Church plays no part in their becoming Christian. If you look at pamphlets written by Evangelicals, instructing readers on how to be born again, they tell their readers, “Now that you’ve been saved, join a church.” In a sense, the church is an afterthought. It’s actually not unheard of, though exceptionally rare, for an Evangelical to say that they simply don’t need the church at all. I remember one man on the radio stating that all he needed was his Bible and prayer time with God; so he didn’t see any reason to go to Church. The most important thing is “me and Jesus,” so other people are at best irrelevant.
I say “at best,” because sometimes in Evangelical Christianity, other people can be viewed with suspicion, even a sense of danger. I remember reading an article by Bethany Tarode, entitled “Here Come the Brides,” where she mentions that her younger sister confessed once that she was TERRIFIED that one day she would love her husband more than she loved Jesus. This didn’t really surprise me, because, during my time in Evangelical circles, there was this strong sense that marriage and love could be dangerous. I heard, and read, constant warnings such as, “Be careful about wanting to get married, since that means you’re not a good Christian. A good Christian doesn’t feel the need for a spouse, since Jesus is all they need. Plus, if you get married, you might start loving your spouse more than you love Jesus. Your love for your spouse could damage your relationship with God, and make you love Him less.” In other words, even a person’s own spouse can be a dangerous distraction, taking them away from God.
I mention this because this mindset can make it very hard for Protestants to accept the idea of devotion to the saints. After all, if other people are unecessary, even dangerous to our relationship with God, then it doesn’t make much sense to “focus” on them.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

It’s actually not unheard of, though exceptionally rare, for an Evangelical to say that they simply don’t need the church at all.

I agree with this. An evangalizer I know was jumping from church to church trying to find a church that held the same beliefs and interpretations he has. He recently left the Assembly of God because the pastor didnt use the word ‘repent’ enough for his liking. He now holds church at his house and even gives out communion to his family and friends who come over.

He told me that it didn’t matter what church you go to. He knew he was talking to a Catholic, but he must of forgot because he then back tract and said “as long as they are truly christian churches”…

 

[valient_Lucy]

Roman_Catholic:

I agree with this. An evangalizer I know was jumping from church to church trying to find a church that held the same beliefs and interpretations he has. He recently left the Assembly of God because the pastor didnt use the word ‘repent’ enough for his liking. He now holds church at his house and even gives out communion to his family and friends who come over.

He told me that it didn’t matter what church you go to. He knew he was talking to a Catholic, but he must of forgot because he then back tract and said “as long as they are truly christian churches”…

Yeah, Church hopping is also very common. My cousin actually said that it’s a good idea to go to church at least a half hour away. He said if you get too close to the people at a church, you start to realize that they sin and have flaws, and then you don’t want to be around them anymore.

 

[mozart-250]

Lucy:
I have seen both.

As a very early Christian I was devastated and almost lost my faith completely when my Charismatic Church in Maine split (and it was over something very stupid). One of the wisest decisions I made was to stay in the church, because the split died and the faith of those that left were shipwrecked. I credit that to my Methodist parent who stayed in their church when is split as a child.

Since then I have observed people come and go, leave the church, start new ones, etc. for the stupidest reasons. And I have developed the philosophy barring extraordinary circumstances it is best to bloom where you are planted.

(Sometimes I wonder if non-Catholic Christians are prone to this because of the schism of the Reformation. Then again I sometimes wonder whether I think too much and see things that aren’t there).

But I have also observed the opposite. Christians who find their meaning in life and are faithful to the small thing that God has called them to do. They love God, they love their Church, and they love fellow Christians. You might have some of these folks next door to your place in eternity as annoying as you might find it.

But I have Never heard someone say you don’t need th church. Honest. And I have never heard anything about what you say in the second paragraph. Honest. Just this week our Church for Lent is going through “A Purpose Driven Life”, and one of the major purposes in that book is “You are created for God’s Family”.

It may seem that church is an afterthought to us; but I think the real reason is that we are not insistent upon our church. If one comes to a relationship with Christ through the ministry of our Church and decides to reconnect with the Church of their youth, we are fine with that (and yes…even if the Church of their youth has the word “Catholic” in their name).

 

[Church_Militant]

valient Lucy:

Yeah, Church hopping is also very common. My cousin actually said that it’s a good idea to go to church at least a half hour away. He said if you get too close to the people at a church, you start to realize that they sin and have flaws, and then you don’t want to be around them anymore.

Gee! I WANT to be in church with people like that because I can identify with human beings better than some sort of idealized robot.

If I’m the only “sinner” then perhaps something is really wrong.

Why would Jesus have spoken Matthew 18:15-20 if there was never going to be a need within the body of Christ?

Individualism…has it’s place. In the end we are responsible for our our own actions and our responses to grace given to us. But the body of Christ is there to support us with love, good counsel in the Holy Spirit, and to help us grow up in all things in Christ. (Simplistically stated)

Jesus said He would build His church…He didn’t say that He would build a battalion of churches that we could pick from. I don’t see that ANYWHERE in the NT and in fact I can think of passages that say just the opposite. It’s not a religious shopping spree.

I think that Sola Scriptura is probably to blame for most of the weirdness of n-C churches. The moment that Luther and the other “reformers” began telling people that they could know all that they needed to know about Christ and Christianity by just simply sitting down with a Bible and reading it, things really went nuts from there.

That same individualism is a problem because it disconnects modern Christians from all the Christians before them and removes the writings and wisdom and lives that were sacrificed for the real New Testament beliefs. If I say that I believe the Bible says something and yet don’t bother to see if that belief was held (or refuted) by the early church then I have no anchor for my interpretation and the result is the other errors that trickle down from SS.

It’s crazy, but just like the Body of Christ, it’s all tied together.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[NPS]

Good points Lucy, and food for thought. Although I have to say I have only heard the “marriage dilemna” thing once ever (on the radio).

I think there may be two main reasons for this individualism.
The individualist thing surely comes from the development of simply saying the magic words to be saved. When you are able to say the magic words, you don’t need any church whatsoever, and those who see it as their job to go around saving people with the magic words don’t see any reason to bring the person back to a building simply in order to say the words.
In other words, find a church where baptism is not stressed and you’ll find more of these types of people.

The second reason is the belief, or lack of belief in the Real Presence. For those people a church is just a place where a lot of “believers” get together, pure and simple. It mostly ends up being a place to get that “Jesus high” through music and emotion. What binds them together is a particular interpretation of Christianity or an emphasis on certain aspects of the faith. These things can change over time and if you throw in personality conflicts, there can be massive change in relatively short periods of time.

For Catholics and others, the church is the place to receive the sacraments and is the place where the Real Presence can be found.

I have a friend who is non-denom. This person has changed churches probably 5 or 6 times in the last ten years. It’s never for lack of faith, it’s more of a case of “I didn’t feel comfortable” at the old church and “I really like the way I feel” at the new church. Most of the time it really seems to be dependent on the likability of the pastor.
I think the reason this person left the last church was because the pastor was very pro-Israel and this person is not.

But to my friend it really doesn’t matter where you go—all are pretty much the same (except Catholic although this person, who was raised Catholic, is warming up again to the RCC, due to one of this person’s parents and myself sort of casually promoting it )

Let’s not forget, however the very “church-minded” traditions that exist in the Protestant group. The Anglicans especially are completely different than these non-denom churches. I know several Lutherans who wouldn’t think of simply trying to get you to “be saved” without first bringing you around to see the church and learn about it all.

 

[valient_Lucy]

NPS:

Let’s not forget, however the very “church-minded” traditions that exist in the Protestant group. The Anglicans especially are completely different than these non-denom churches. I know several Lutherans who wouldn’t think of simply trying to get you to “be saved” without first bringing you around to see the church and learn about it all.

You’re absolutly right. Many Protestant Christians do stress the importance of Church, and agree that the Church is not simply an afterthought. I wrote this piece, however, in response to the Kujo Mary/Goddess thread, where some anti-Catholics were questioning the need for Mary. I was just hoping to get Catholics to think about their difficulty with the saints in a broader context, the strong stress of individualism within many Protestant circles.

Thanks for your comments and insights. I think you were right on the money with them.

 

[Nicene]

Let’s not forget, however the very “church-minded” traditions that exist in the Protestant group. The Anglicans especially are completely different than these non-denom churches. I know several Lutherans who wouldn’t think of simply trying to get you to “be saved” without first bringing you around to see the church and learn about it all.

This is a good point and I think you can place Methodists in there as well. Presbyterians also, but they seem to buying into modernism lately.

The real explosion of the individualism (which really is a form of self elightenment borrowed from eastern religions) occurred in the 1800’s when people abandoned traditional worship. Massive errors erupted. Of the 4 major groups to emerge only one remained within the bounds of christianity.

Relating to the OP one can see similarities between the Shakers and the modern day evangelicals/charismatics/pentecostals. (Have to admit though, the Shakers made great furniture ) Though the Shaker movement emerged in the late 1700’s.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[BryPGuy89]

valient Lucy:

I posted this on another thread, the Kujo Mary/Isis thread. But I could sense that my post was going to get lost in the shuffle, so I’m going to post it as a seperate thread.
I think that one thing that people need to keep in mind about Protestants, especially Evangelical Protestants, is that they are very very individualist. Think about how they think that people become Christian. Often, they instruct people to pray to Jesus, ask for forgiveness for their sins, and ask Jesus to come into their hearts. After that, they are Christian. What’s important about this is that the Church plays no part in their becoming Christian. If you look at pamphlets written by Evangelicals, instructing readers on how to be born again, they tell their readers, “Now that you’ve been saved, join a church.” In a sense, the church is an afterthought. It’s actually not unheard of, though exceptionally rare, for an Evangelical to say that they simply don’t need the church at all. I remember one man on the radio stating that all he needed was his Bible and prayer time with God; so he didn’t see any reason to go to Church. The most important thing is “me and Jesus,” so other people are at best irrelevant.
I say “at best,” because sometimes in Evangelical Christianity, other people can be viewed with suspicion, even a sense of danger. I remember reading an article by Bethany Tarode, entitled “Here Come the Brides,” where she mentions that her younger sister confessed once that she was TERRIFIED that one day she would love her husband more than she loved Jesus. This didn’t really surprise me, because, during my time in Evangelical circles, there was this strong sense that marriage and love could be dangerous. I heard, and read, constant warnings such as, “Be careful about wanting to get married, since that means you’re not a good Christian. A good Christian doesn’t feel the need for a spouse, since Jesus is all they need. Plus, if you get married, you might start loving your spouse more than you love Jesus. Your love for your spouse could damage your relationship with God, and make you love Him less.” In other words, even a person’s own spouse can be a dangerous distraction, taking them away from God.
I mention this because this mindset can make it very hard for Protestants to accept the idea of devotion to the saints. After all, if other people are unecessary, even dangerous to our relationship with God, then it doesn’t make much sense to “focus” on them.

Just another reason why they defy the Bible’s teachings, Jesus always called for a community of faith. He talked of one church to build up on. Man is easily corrupted and it can be seen often when individual preachers go off into tranlating scripture to work towards their beleifs and views. That is why a set doctrine and the CCC are important. The marriage I’m not sure i live a celibate lifestyle and plan to continue in such.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Motzart250:

Lucy:
I have seen both.

Since then I have observed people come and go, leave the church, start new ones, etc. for the stupidest reasons. And I have developed the philosophy barring extraordinary circumstances it is best to bloom where you are planted.

(Sometimes I wonder if non-Catholic Christians are prone to this because of the schism of the Reformation. Then again I sometimes wonder whether I think too much and see things that aren’t there).
.

I think you’re probably right with the idea of the Reformation. But I also think some of it stems from American fast-food culture. People sometimes, and I include myself in this, look for a church based on what it can offer them. In other words, “I go to Church A because I like the music. I go to Church B because I like the pastor. I go to Church C because it has a lot of activities for young people…” Now, none of these things are wrong. It’s great to like music, to have a great pastor, and to activities for young people. What is wrong, however, is to choose a church based simply on the “What’s in it for me?” principle.
Don’t get me wrong, I do not think that Protestants hold a monopoly on this. My guess is that Americans hold a monopoly on this.
Motzart250:

But I have also observed the opposite. Christians who find their meaning in life and are faithful to the small thing that God has called them to do. They love God, they love their Church, and they love fellow Christians. You might have some of these folks next door to your place in eternity as annoying as you might find it.

I certainly hope so! My maternal grandmother, who died several years ago, was a lifelong Lutheran. My mother is a member of a non-denominational church, as well as my younger brother, all of whom I love very dearly. My father does not attend church, though I do pray for him.
Motzart250:

But I have Never heard someone say you don’t need th church. Honest. And I have never heard anything about what you say in the second paragraph. Honest. Just this week our Church for Lent is going through “A Purpose Driven Life”, and one of the major purposes in that book is “You are created for God’s Family”.
.

I did say that the first point, deciding that a Christian didn’t need the church at all, was exceptionally rare. And I would never say that Protestantism holds a monopoly on individualism and isolationism. After all, the early church has a very strong tradition of hermits.
However, I think that Protestant Christians are far more likely to think of themselves as autonomous. Probably 7 years ago or so, before I even considered becoming Catholic, I had an argument with my mother. As I said, my mother attends a non-denominational church, and at that time I attended it with her. One evening we decided that we could not make it to church, which is about 40 minutes away. We were dissapointed, since we were going to miss communion. My mom, however, stated that we could have our own communion ceremony, without going to church. That was the crux of the argument. I felt that we had no buisness performing our own communion ceremony seperate from the church community. I couldn’t explain it, but I knew somehow this was wrong. My mom, as devout as she is, didn’t feel, and still does not feel guilty, about missing church service occasionally, reasoning that she can pray and study the Bible at home. (She does this every morning; my brother and I know not to disturb her.) In a sense, even though she defended going to church very strongly to my father (he wanted to know why we just couldn’t watch it on television), she still feels that studying the bible on her own is the same as going to church.
I also still feel that Protestants stress individualism in their worship, especially the modern praise songs. “I want to know you,” “Jesus, you’re the lover of my soul,” “I worship the lamb,” “I could sing of your love forever (the MOST overplayed song in the history of the world),” etc. Notice that all of lyrics use the singular pronoun I. The congregation sings “I,” not “we.” This seems to give the sense that the congregation is simply a meeting ground of other autonomous Christians. Richard Rodriguez, a hispanic man who was raised Catholic, talked about his experience reading the spiritual autobiographies of the Puritans. He said, “I came to realize that the only experience that they shared was the experience of standing alone before God.” Only after I started attending Mass did I fully understand that statement.

 

[Jeanette_L]

valient Lucy:

I wrote this piece, however, in response to the Kujo Mary/Goddess thread, where some anti-Catholics were questioning the need for Mary. I was just hoping to get Catholics to think about their difficulty with the saints in a broader context, the strong stress of individualism within many Protestant circles.

My own experience in Evangelicalism and what was taught about Catholicism’s emphasis on Mary and the Saints was really the misunderstanding of the state of being after death. We had the idea that for a believer, after death all participation in the mission of the Body of Christ ceased, and it was basically a waiting game for the completion of time, the resurrection of the body, and then eternity in heaven with Christ. Our idea was almost like just being in a state of bliss, with no worry about what was happening on earth or the continuing work of Christ’s Body in that mission.

So, to have the idea that Mary or the Saints could actually be comminicated to, and would actively participate in our mission was just not on the radar screen for us. It was considered idolotry to think about communicating with the “dead”, as we did not envision them as alive and accessible. It was never really a well thought out idea, at least for me. I just believed what I was taught without logically thinking it all through.

It never crossed my mind that once I was brought into the living organism of Christ’s Body, that I was not simply cut out after my flesh died. I have such a different understanding now, I mean completely different picture of what we as members of Christ’s Body are all about.

It’s much more beautiful from the Catholic understanding, I would never trade it for a lesser view again!

 

[valient_Lucy]

mozart-250:

Lucy:
I

But I have Never heard someone say you don’t need th church. Honest. And I have never heard anything about what you say in the second paragraph.

Sadly, the second paragraph was a large point in my life as a teenager. Sadly, I also shared the fear of Bethany Tarode’s younger sister, that one day I would love my spouse more than God, and I wondered if it might be “safer” for me to stay single, since I felt that I would be completly in love with my husband, and it might make me love God less.
I remember reading articles advising girls to perform a “spiritual marriage” to Jesus, and signing a certificate saying that they had performed this ceremony. At the end of this certificate, it stated, “I promised that, if I am to someday be wedded to a man, this relationship will always come second to my commitment to God.” I also remember hearing a story about a woman whose husband asked her to constantly say in her prayers that she loved God more than she loved her husband Charley. I recently read an article on a Protestant website, Boundless, which argues for a renewed appreciation of Christian marriage. In one article, a writer, I believe it was Candice Watters, stated that some women objected to her writings about how God placed within most women a desire for marriage. They argued that Jesus is enough, and that to say that people somehow needed to get married was offensive to God. (Candice Watters argued against this idea.) Now, I don’t disagree with the idea that God is the center of our lives. But I do have a problem with the idea that somehow our love for our spouse is somehow in opposition to our love from God.
Now, once again, I do not think that EVERY Protestant feels this way, or even that MOST Protestants think that way. However, I have observed this streak, or tendancy, within Evangelical Protestantism, and especially in Fundamentalist Protestantism: the Christians who are most likely to be anti-Catholic. They were mainly the subject of my original post.