Are certain world leaders actually atheists?

A

Anobsitar

Member
vz71 said:
I suspect I do. And you wisely have chosen not to double down on the statement.
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I fear that the real problems lie elsewhere than is generally assumed here. Example: Donald Trump (= atheist “Protestant”) wants to destroy Europe together with Vladimir Putin (= atheist “Orthodox”) by supporting Satan (= Nazis, communists, Islamists, terrorists). But Europe is more than just Europe: the Enlightenment (God is truth, God is reason) underpins the modern world – including in America, Africa, Asia, and everywhere in the South. The children of God belong together. And I “fear” we are the salt of the earth (= God is love) – whether we want to be or not.

Ye are the salt of the earth.
Mt 5:13
Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
Lu 14:34
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Mr 9:49
Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Mr 9:50

I wish you a wonderful second Advent – even though many thoughts these days are sad. But the road to Bethlehem has never been an easy and carefree one; rather, it is a road that requires great courage, trust, and unconditional love. Never forget: God is love. Only the struggle for life is worthwhile.

 
Neither Trump nor Putin are atheists. They have both spoken publicly of their belief in God, and on top of that, Putin receives the valid sacraments of the Russian Orthodox Church and assists at their Divine Liturgy, which is one and the same thing as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. They come to conclusions about moral decisions, in grave matters, that are different from what the Catholic Church teaches, but even a lot of people who call themselves Catholics do that, sad to say. That does not make any of these people atheists.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
Neither Trump nor Putin are atheists. ...
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That is completely wrong. Donald Trump was never raised as a Christian and has never attended a church service. So far, Donald Trump has merely abused the Christian religion. Putin is even worse. The current Russian Patriarch Kirill was once a member of the KGB and, thanks to Putin's favor, is now an oligarch with a private fortune of around $2.7 billion. This means that Putin even controls the administration and clergy of the Russian Orthodox Church.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
They have both spoken publicly of their belief in God,
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So did do Adolf Hitler - who also never believed in god. All leading Nazis had been atheists and all leading communists also had been atheists.

HomeschoolDad said:
and on top of that, Putin receives the valid sacraments of the Russian Orthodox Church and assists at their Divine Liturgy, which is one and the same thing as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
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What's only a shame for all Christians in the world.

HomeschoolDad said:
They come to conclusions about moral decisions,
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¿Trump? ¿Putin? ... ¿Moral? ... Sorry ... are you sure you live on the same planet as I do?

HomeschoolDad said:
in grave matters, that are different from what the Catholic Church teaches
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What does that have to do with someone who doesn't believe in God?

HomeschoolDad said:
, but even a lot of people who call themselves Catholics do that, sad to say.
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What do you mean by “many people who call themselves Catholics”? Do they prefer to be useful idiots by supporting liars and criminals like Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin?

HomeschoolDad said:
That does not make any of these people atheists.
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There are also decent atheists. But they don't claim to speak for Christians when they continuously mock, deceive, and insult the majority of the world's population on racist grounds and destroy their fellow citizens socially, psychologically, or physically.
 
Anobsitar said:
That is completely wrong. Donald Trump was never raised as a Christian and has never attended a church service. So far, Donald Trump has merely abused the Christian religion. Putin is even worse. The current Russian Patriarch Kirill was once a member of the KGB and, thanks to Putin's favor, is now an oligarch with a private fortune of around $2.7 billion. This means that Putin even controls the administration and clergy of the Russian Orthodox Church.
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Trump was raised as a Presbyterian. Granted, his understanding of Christianity is superficial, but he does have at least some religious background:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_and_religion

Putin was baptized as an Orthodox Christian and professes that religion.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
...
Putin was baptized as an Orthodox Christian and professes that religion.
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Putin was a leading member of the Soviet Union and the KGB. Torturing political prisoners was also part of his job when he was working in East Germany. And he is a murderer – take his opponent Navalny as an example. Take the mass murders committed by his Nazi mercenaries as an example. These criminals are now part of the regular Russian army.
 
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HomeschoolDad said:
Trump was raised as a Presbyterian. ...
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Firstly, Trump is a liar who is successful because he lies faster than anyone can correct his worst mistakes. That is why Donald Trump is no longer a source for me. As far as I know, his father was a member of a sect of money worshippers.

In neither of these two absurd men can I see anything that has anything to do with the Christian religion.
 
I don't think any of us would want to raise our children to view either Trump or Putin as paragons of Christian virtue, but Trump was raised as a Presbyterian (this presumably under the aegis of his Scottish-born mother), and Putin was baptized (and presumably chrismated as is Orthodox practice) as an infant. Trump speaks of being concerned about his relationship with Almighty God, and has a nascent devotion to St Michael the Archangel, and Putin receives valid sacraments in the Orthodox Church. Calling either man an atheist because of their bad behavior is putting on awfully big shoes. Al Capone said that if his death were imminent, he would want a priest by his side to administer last rites. Bad guy, but no atheist. There are more examples of this mindset than can be named. In a sense, we all do this when we deliberately sin.
 
Anobsitar said:
I fear that the real problems lie elsewhere than is generally assumed here. Example: Donald Trump (= atheist “Protestant”) wants to destroy Europe together with Vladimir Putin (= atheist “Orthodox”) by supporting Satan (= Nazis, communists, Islamists, terrorists). But Europe is more than just Europe: the Enlightenment (God is truth, God is reason) underpins the modern world – including in America, Africa, Asia, and everywhere in the South. The children of God belong together. And I “fear” we are the salt of the earth (= God is love) – whether we want to be or not.
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I stand corrected.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

But I do have to confess a curiosity as to where exactly this is going.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
I don't think any of us would want to raise our children to view either Trump or Putin as paragons of Christian virtue, but Trump was raised as a Presbyterian (this presumably under the aegis of his Scottish-born mother), and Putin was baptized (and presumably chrismated as is Orthodox practice) as an infant. Trump speaks of being concerned about his relationship with Almighty God, and has a nascent devotion to St Michael the Archangel, and Putin receives valid sacraments in the Orthodox Church. Calling either man an atheist because of their bad behavior is putting on awfully big shoes. Al Capone said that if his death were imminent, he would want a priest by his side to administer last rites. Bad guy, but no atheist. There are more examples of this mindset than can be named. In a sense, we all do this when we deliberately sin.
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Putin and Trump died, came before God's throne, and both asked the same question in unison: “Why are you sitting on my throne, God?” I think both will think this joke is really funny. They are atheists.
 
vz71 said:
None of which makes him an atheist.
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There were and are no leading Nazis or leading communists who were not atheists. Both Putin and Trump support a political party in Germany that is widely regarded as a right-wing extremist organization (= Nazis).

In view of the atrocities committed by the Third Reich, the German Bishops' Conference issued an urgent appeal not to vote for this party – despite Trump's commemoration of “Santa Claus” memorial day, the recommendation was passed on by the USA to continue supporting Nazis in Germany, which actually means that the USA wants to turn its long-won victory over Nazi Germany into a defeat.

I fear that their ingenious attempt to make the unbearable bearable could very quickly turn into hell in the USA itself. It is extremely disturbing when Donald Trump, on the historic day commemorating the real Santa Claus, calls for a Christian alliance between Russia and the USA against Europe.
 
vz71 said:
You brought him up.
For someone that is not a source for you, he seems to occupy a lot of your thoughts.
I believe the expression that is most apt is "He's living rent free in your head."
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No one lives in my head unless I voluntarily grant them asylum. This includes, for example, Pericles and the Athenian owl. Such roommates leave no room for egocentric tyrants. Living democracy requires wisdom, not Gessler hats.

----- I saw the expression "Gessler hat" is relativelly unkown. Here a translation of this German source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesslerhut for this expression:

A Gessler hat is, figuratively speaking, an institution whose sole purpose is to publicly enforce submissive behavior.

The first act of Friedrich Schiller's Wilhelm Tell depicts how the legendary Gessler [...] had a hat placed in Altdorf that everyone passing by had to salute. In the third act, William Tell fails to do so and is therefore forced to shoot the apple, which plays an important role in the founding legend of Switzerland.

Hermann Göring had a variant of the Gessler hat erected in the Dachau concentration camp. Because the two Catholic priests Josef Zilliken and Johannes Schulz did not greet him in a garden restaurant on May 27, 1940, they were arrested that same evening and sent to the concentration camp as punishment. In addition, they had to march past a uniform cap stuck on a pole, symbolizing Göring, with their arms raised in the Hitler salute.
 
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For Thanksgiving this year, we managed to have more family and friends stop by then in previous years.

After a period of time, one could see a very distinct divide show itself between two different groups of people.

One group was laughing, talking, and enjoying family and friends.
We played cards after the dinner and kept the holiday going well into the next morning.
We had a great time, made plans on how to do this next year, and it was genuinely a pleasure.

The other group kept mentioning Trump. They were angry, outraged, and couldn't enjoy the holiday.
Any attempt to talk with them found one dragged into some diatribe of "Trump did this...Trump that...Putin...DOGE...Borders..."
Fortunately there were only a few. But their presence was felt. They were angry at everything. Couldn't enjoy themselves or enjoy the company of others. Their conversation simply was one imagined outrage after another.
In the midst of plenty, they found poverty. In the midst of family and friends, they were alone and miserable.

Of course, none of this really relates to the thread. My apologies for being so far off topic.
But it seemed apropos.
 
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