Is the CCC a rule or a suggestion or?

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On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being “Knowledge handed down from God, you better know this stuff” and 1 being “Here are some nice ideas that we encourage you to think about, but do and believe whatever you want”, what authority does the Catechism claim to have?

From the Fidei Depositum I read in the beginning, it looks like it claims to be a 10 until the last few paragraphs - those paragraphs making me feel its more like a 1.

Please point me to a discussion on this matter. I’ll hang up and take my answer off the air. Thanks.
 
**

APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
FIDEI DEPOSITUM

ON THE PUBLICATION OF THE

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

PREPARED FOLLOWING THE SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL **JOHN PAUL, BISHOP
SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD
FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY
**

**
The Doctrinal Value of the Text

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium.** I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.** May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!
 
johnq said:
**

APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
FIDEI DEPOSITUM**

ON THE PUBLICATION OF THE

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

PREPARED FOLLOWING THE SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL **JOHN PAUL, BISHOP
SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD
FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY
**

The Doctrinal Value of the Text

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium.** I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.** May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!
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Sounds like an 11 to me. 😃
 
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LilyM:
Sounds like an 11 to me. 😃
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Sure…let’s just make it cannon, include it right behind Revelations. Better yet, why don’t we revise scripture to make it explicitly say what the CCC says. :eek:

Yes, I’m being sarcastic, but don’t think I am against the CCC. After scripture, it is the guiding document for my faith and morals. On principle I believe and adhere to every point in it. But I do not believe every last detail of it applies uniformly to all individuals, in all cultures, in all times, in all situations. That statement is not meant to give comfort to those looking for a legal technicality to sin. We can not hypothetically define exceptions, but they are there.

Sorry, Lily, if I sound hostile. Please don’t take it personally. This is just a pet peeve of mine and has almost caused me to leave the Roman Catholic Church for Eastern Orthodoxy. I do not believe that RC teaches that the CCC is inspired as equally as scripture, but if it ever does (officially), I will leave.
 
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LilyM:
Sounds like an 11 to me. 😃
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Sure…let’s just make it cannon, include it right behind Revelations. Better yet, why don’t we revise scripture to make it explicitly say what the CCC says. :eek:

Yes, I’m being sarcastic, but don’t think I am against the CCC. After scripture, it is the guiding document for my faith and morals. On principle I believe and adhere to every point in it. But I do not believe every last detail of it applies uniformly to all individuals, in all cultures, in all times, in all situations. That statement is not meant to give comfort to those looking for a legal technicality to sin. We can not hypothetically define exceptions, but they are there.

Sorry, Lily, if I sound hostile. Please don’t take it personally. This is just a pet peeve of mine and has almost caused me to leave the Roman Catholic Church for Eastern Orthodoxy. I do not believe that RC teaches that the CCC is inspired as equally as scripture, but if it ever does (officially), I will leave.
 
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T1pp:
Sure…let’s just make it cannon, include it right behind Revelations. Better yet, why don’t we revise scripture to make it explicitly say what the CCC says. :eek:

Yes, I’m being sarcastic, but don’t think I am against the CCC. After scripture, it is the guiding document for my faith and morals. On principle I believe and adhere to every point in it. But I do not believe every last detail of it applies uniformly to all individuals, in all cultures, in all times, in all situations. That statement is not meant to give comfort to those looking for a legal technicality to sin. We can not hypothetically define exceptions, but they are there.

Sorry, Lily, if I sound hostile. Please don’t take it personally. This is just a pet peeve of mine and has almost caused me to leave the Roman Catholic Church for Eastern Orthodoxy. I do not believe that RC teaches that the CCC is inspired as equally as scripture, but if it ever does (officially), I will leave.
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What is your problem with the CCC? Give us a couple of examples so we can understand what you are getting at.
 
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thistle:
What is your problem with the CCC? Give us a couple of examples so we can understand what you are getting at.
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I’m not against anything in the CCC. I am against people using it as a book of absolute laws as if it the modern day Book of Leviticus.
 
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T1pp:
I’m not against anything in the CCC. I am against people using it as a book of absolute laws as if it the modern day Book of Leviticus.
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Give us an example then of how you have seen it used as an absolute law which you disagree with.
 
Russ 2073:
On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being “Knowledge handed down from God, you better know this stuff” and 1 being “Here are some nice ideas that we encourage you to think about, but do and believe whatever you want”, what authority does the Catechism claim to have?.
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LillyM: Sounds like an 11 to me. (Knowledge handed down from God)

It’s not the CCC or anything in it that I object to. It is the abuse of the CCC by some Catholics that I object to. We can’t just write our own books and call them divinely inspired. We’re not Mormons (Sorry Mormons).

I know you want me to pick something out of the CCC that I have a problem with, but that is not my point. I think there are exceptions to what is stated, particularly in the Ten Commandments section, but I can’t tell you what those exceptions are, nor can I hypothetically define a situation for an exception. There is not a lot of flexibility or leeway, but you still have to consider an individual’s culture, age, situation, intelligence, and other factors before telling them that they are mortally sinning. Too many people have been driven away from the Church and from Christ because some over zealous and misinformed layperson uses the CCC to point out all of their mortal sins.

I’m promise I’m not an angry typer 🙂 I know it sounds like it though today. Sorry.
 
Lilly,

Hey … I don’t mean to pick on you. I know your reply was off the cuff. It just demonstrated a problem I have with the way some people approach the CCC.

Take care,
Mike
 
Russ 2073:
On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being “Knowledge handed down from God, you better know this stuff” and 1 being “Here are some nice ideas that we encourage you to think about, but do and believe whatever you want”, what authority does the Catechism claim to have?

From the Fidei Depositum I read in the beginning, it looks like it claims to be a 10 until the last few paragraphs - those paragraphs making me feel its more like a 1.

Please point me to a discussion on this matter. I’ll hang up and take my answer off the air. Thanks.
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The Catechism is a summary of doctrine and theology, not the source of doctrine and theology. A “sure norm” of Catholic teaching which includes “common teaching” (theological speculation which is not binding) and “certain teaching” (requires religious assent) and “infallible teaching” (requires assent of faith). Thus, it is too simplistic a question. Parts are revealed truth, parts are speculative.
 
Here’s a hint - I don’t treat my CCC with reverence, like I do my Bible.

But with that being said, the CCC is an valuable guide to the infallible teachings of the Church.
 
Russ 2073:
On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being “Knowledge handed down from God, you better know this stuff” and 1 being “Here are some nice ideas that we encourage you to think about, but do and believe whatever you want”, what authority does the Catechism claim to have?

From the Fidei Depositum I read in the beginning, it looks like it claims to be a 10 until the last few paragraphs - those paragraphs making me feel its more like a 1.

Please point me to a discussion on this matter. I’ll hang up and take my answer off the air. Thanks.
Click to expand...
The prologue to the Catechism states:
11 This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church’s Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church’s Magisterium. It is intended to serve “as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries”.[15]

12 This work is intended primarily for those responsible for catechesis: first of all the bishops, as teachers of the faith and pastors of the Church. It is offered to them as an instrument in fulfilling their responsibility of teaching the People of God. Through the bishops, it is addressed to redactors of catechisms, to priests, and to catechists. It will also be useful reading for all other Christian faithful.

Yes, it is an authoritative and normative document. It is the teaching of the ordinary Magesterium. It is not a “nice idea” with “optional belief”, it is a presentation of doctrine binding all Catholics.
 
I would rate it as an 8 or 9 on the surety scale. As Dave pointed out, the statements of the CCC carry different levels of authority, and the document (book, compendium?) itself is not infallible. At the same time, it contains many truths that have been defined infallibly and others that would be considered infallible by nature of the constant teaching of the ordinary Magisterium. These teachings are infallible on their own and not by virtue of their inclusion in the CCC. Other teachings are not irreformable; at the very least, though, having been promulgated by the ordinary papal magisterium, they, according to Vatican II, demand assent of mind and will.*

*In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. (Lumen Gentium, 25)
 
The CCC contains many items of discipline as well as doctrine, for example, the excommunication for abortion.
 
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Catholic2003:
The CCC contains many items of discipline as well as doctrine, for example, the excommunication for abortion.
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Wow, so much reaction to my remark! :bigyikes:

I don’t consciously or subconsciously rate the CCC quite so highly - the above quote is much closer to my real view, combined with the remark about it being an 8 or 9.
 
Finally got back here. Thanks, you guys rock.

If anyone is still listening (Dave), how do I sort out which part is which?

[Sorry I’m not up on the cool quote thing] The Catechism is a summary of doctrine and theology, not the source of doctrine and theology. A “sure norm” of Catholic teaching which includes “common teaching” (theological speculation which is not binding) and “certain teaching” (requires religious assent) and “infallible teaching” (requires assent of faith). Thus, it is too simplistic a question. Parts are revealed truth, parts are speculative.
 
The Catechism is an official document of the Catholic Church. Therefor, since it is OFFICIAL, that means it is 100% infallible in the subject of faith and morality. You must realize that not everything in the Catechism is about those two subjects. The first section is about the creed which is what we believe, so a large portion of that is infallible, while the second is aobut the sacraments, which has some to do with faith. For example the Eucharist being the body blood soul and divinity. But how the celebration of the Eucharist is described in here is not completely infallible. The third section is about our morality of the ten commandments, so anything that says ‘this is either right or wrong’ is completley without a doubt infallible. The fourth section is about prayer, and how to get closer to God through prayer, but everyones relationship with God is different so thats just general inspiration and thoughts of prayer.
Therefore, unlike scripture not EVERY word is inspired. However EVERY word related to morality and Fatih is and is in fact 100% true according to Catholic belief. Anything contrary to this is heresy
 
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T1pp:
LillyM: Sounds like an 11 to me. (Knowledge handed down from God)

It’s not the CCC or anything in it that I object to. It is the abuse of the CCC by some Catholics that I object to. We can’t just write our own books and call them divinely inspired. We’re not Mormons (Sorry Mormons).

I know you want me to pick something out of the CCC that I have a problem with, but that is not my point. I think there are exceptions to what is stated, particularly in the Ten Commandments section, but I can’t tell you what those exceptions are, nor can I hypothetically define a situation for an exception. There is not a lot of flexibility or leeway, but you still have to consider an individual’s culture, age, situation, intelligence, and other factors before telling them that they are mortally sinning.
Too many people have been driven away from the Church and from Christ because some over zealous and misinformed layperson uses the CCC to point out all of their mortal sins.

I’m promise I’m not an angry typer 🙂 I know it sounds like it though today. Sorry.
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I don’t understand what age, culture, or situation have to do with it. I always thought that flexibility and leeway are what gave the church most of its problems.
 
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