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WanderAimlessly
Guest
Finally someone finally say something I have been thinking of for along time about the EU:
PF
Italian Minister Accuses Holland of “Nazism” for Euthanasia Laws
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B
bones_IV
Guest
Agreed!
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Eileen_T
Guest
And good on Carlo Giovanardi for sticking to his principles and refusing to apologise for speaking the truth, after all, the Nazis started with the euthanasia of babies and children and ‘progressed’ to the physically and mentally disabled.
For more information on **Euthanasia in Nazi Germany - The T4 Programme ** go here life.org.nz/euthanasiaabouteuthanasiahistoryglobal6.htm
We need another Church leader such as Blessed Clemens von Galen to rise up in the Netherlands.
life.org.nz/euthanasiaabouteuthanasiahistoryglobal7.htm
For more information on **Euthanasia in Nazi Germany - The T4 Programme ** go here life.org.nz/euthanasiaabouteuthanasiahistoryglobal6.htm
We need another Church leader such as Blessed Clemens von Galen to rise up in the Netherlands.
life.org.nz/euthanasiaabouteuthanasiahistoryglobal7.htm
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WanderAimlessly
Guest
Still will not apologise:
PF
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paul_post
Guest
I am really surprised how people can judge without knowing the real “story”. During the discussion on Italian TV a member of the European Parliament tried to give some background information, but got no change to do so. I think Mrs. Giovanardi needs some attention these days now the elections are coming and he wants to gain votes from all the people following in the blind these kind of politicians.
I have written to Mrs Giovanardi (he will not reply I am sure) that he claims that The Netherlands ignore 2000 years of christian development. Is it not true that in these 2000 years he is referring to that the Roman Catholic church did bring people to death only because these people had different ideas (but were 100% healthy)??
It is a pitty that especially an Italian politician is referring to Nazism, knowing the history a bit.
I have written to Mrs Giovanardi (he will not reply I am sure) that he claims that The Netherlands ignore 2000 years of christian development. Is it not true that in these 2000 years he is referring to that the Roman Catholic church did bring people to death only because these people had different ideas (but were 100% healthy)??
It is a pitty that especially an Italian politician is referring to Nazism, knowing the history a bit.
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beckers
Guest
life.org.nz/euthanasiaabouteuthanasiahistoryglobal6.htm
In his “Medical Science under Dictatorship”, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, July, 1949, Dr Alexander observed:
“Whatever proportions these crimes finally assumed, it became evident to all who investigated them, that they started from small beginnings. The beginnings at first were merely a subtle shift in emphasis in the basic attitudes of physicians.
“It started with the acceptance of the attitude, basic to the euthanasia movement, that there is such a thing as a life not worthy to be lived. This attitude in its early stages concerned itself merely with the severely and chronically sick.
“Gradually the sphere of those to be included in this category was enlarged to encompass the socially unproductive, the ideologically unwanted, the racially unwanted, and finally all non-Germans.”
Amazing how someone from the past can still speak so loud…Remember those that do not remember history are doomed to repeat it…
In his “Medical Science under Dictatorship”, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, July, 1949, Dr Alexander observed:
“Whatever proportions these crimes finally assumed, it became evident to all who investigated them, that they started from small beginnings. The beginnings at first were merely a subtle shift in emphasis in the basic attitudes of physicians.
“It started with the acceptance of the attitude, basic to the euthanasia movement, that there is such a thing as a life not worthy to be lived. This attitude in its early stages concerned itself merely with the severely and chronically sick.
“Gradually the sphere of those to be included in this category was enlarged to encompass the socially unproductive, the ideologically unwanted, the racially unwanted, and finally all non-Germans.”
Amazing how someone from the past can still speak so loud…Remember those that do not remember history are doomed to repeat it…
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paul_post
Guest
I think it is too easy to judge this topic if you never have experienced anything related to this kind of tragedie. What will you do when you see a child suffering, in pain and without any chance for recovery and facing a terrible death…and 100% sure that death will follow.
Too easy to pinnpoint to phrases, too easy to judge other people from your own comfortable chair, thinking on how other people should live and should decide. But what if you would visit a hospital ans facing a person you condempt to a painfull death…
Too easy to pinnpoint to phrases, too easy to judge other people from your own comfortable chair, thinking on how other people should live and should decide. But what if you would visit a hospital ans facing a person you condempt to a painfull death…
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beckers
Guest
I am sorry but I believe only GOD has the right to decide who should live and die. It’s that simple for me. Yes it would be painful to watch anyone die a slow or painful death but once again is not my choice and i bet if you asked those who are sick if they wish that the had never been born instead of suffering through their illness they would probally say a.) yes i am happy i got alive and b.) thankful that i am alive to make my own decisions.
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fix
Guest
No one is condeming anyone to death, unless one has chosen to actively end another’s life.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Typical liberalism-atheism, on one hand call for more and more money for medical research to at least HOPE to find a cure and then turn around and say “100% sure” death will follow and they are not worth saving.
If anyone wants to expose euthanasia for the wicked satanic lie it is, just suggest they are to be done WITHOUT cost, as in the “doctor” DOESNT get paid. Soon after you will see that when no money is changing hands they dont care about the “suffering child” anymore.
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Eileen_T
Guest
My family has worked with intellectually and physically disabled people for years. These people have to live in a society that says it would have been better if they had never been born. They are deeply hurt and offended by this attitude. Someone else is making quality of life assumptions for them, often without their (name removed by moderator)ut.
The Netherlands is killing disabled babies. They are using the arguments that euthanasia advocates often use, and Paul Post is repeating, that these babies are suffering and in pain to justify their actions. Infant euthanasia is not restricted to dying babies but can be based on predicted serious disability.
I believe that the people in the Netherlands are spoon-fed lies, half-truths and misinformation so that they don’t recognise the truth about what is going on.
In 1990, the Royal Dutch Medical Association (KNMG) published a report intended to govern “life-terminating actions” taken against incompetent patients, including severely disabled newborns. The KNMG approved of pediatric euthanasia if the baby is deemed to have an “unlivable life.”
A study published in 1997 in the Lancet determined that in 1995, about 8 percent of all infants who died in the Netherlands–some 80 babies–were euthanized by doctors, and not all with parental consent.
Read more about the situation in the Netherlands in regard to it’s Euthanasia laws and practice. Many euthanasia deaths are not even reported as such.
life.org.nz/euthanasiaabouteuthanasiahistoryglobal3.htm
and life.org.nz/euthanasiaabouteuthanasiahistoryglobal10.htm
The Netherlands is killing disabled babies. They are using the arguments that euthanasia advocates often use, and Paul Post is repeating, that these babies are suffering and in pain to justify their actions. Infant euthanasia is not restricted to dying babies but can be based on predicted serious disability.
I believe that the people in the Netherlands are spoon-fed lies, half-truths and misinformation so that they don’t recognise the truth about what is going on.
In 1990, the Royal Dutch Medical Association (KNMG) published a report intended to govern “life-terminating actions” taken against incompetent patients, including severely disabled newborns. The KNMG approved of pediatric euthanasia if the baby is deemed to have an “unlivable life.”
A study published in 1997 in the Lancet determined that in 1995, about 8 percent of all infants who died in the Netherlands–some 80 babies–were euthanized by doctors, and not all with parental consent.
Read more about the situation in the Netherlands in regard to it’s Euthanasia laws and practice. Many euthanasia deaths are not even reported as such.
life.org.nz/euthanasiaabouteuthanasiahistoryglobal3.htm
and life.org.nz/euthanasiaabouteuthanasiahistoryglobal10.htm
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paul_post
Guest
Yes, just go on by taking a part of a sentence and put your own assumptions to it, so that even I will doubt what is really going on. Some people are masters in turning the words in such a way that it seems the truth in on their side.
I see in the last posting this quote:
“My family has worked with intellectually and physically disabled people for years. These people have to live in a society that says it would have been better if they had never been born. They are deeply hurt and offended by this attitude. Someone else is making quality of life assumptions for them, often without their (name removed by moderator)ut.”
In what country is this happening??? This is really a situation new to me, and we are talking here about “only” disabled people. The diabled people in The Netherlands are surrounded by special care units with dedicated people with warm harts and ability to offer a quality life for them.
Who is talking about disabled in this discussion??? This is far away of what is really the point.
I see in the last posting this quote:
“My family has worked with intellectually and physically disabled people for years. These people have to live in a society that says it would have been better if they had never been born. They are deeply hurt and offended by this attitude. Someone else is making quality of life assumptions for them, often without their (name removed by moderator)ut.”
In what country is this happening??? This is really a situation new to me, and we are talking here about “only” disabled people. The diabled people in The Netherlands are surrounded by special care units with dedicated people with warm harts and ability to offer a quality life for them.
Who is talking about disabled in this discussion??? This is far away of what is really the point.
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m134e5
Guest
First thing’s first- your message is so full of typos it is VERY difficult to read. If you expect people to take what you have to say seriously, please begin by looking over what you have written before you submit it- or editing your post if you look at it and find you have typos all over the place.
paul_post:
paul_post:
paul_post:
paul_post:
I have experienced this kind of tragedy. I know what it is like to see others in pain that will not go away. It hurts to watch, and I know they hurt as well. Killing them isn’t the answer. Much good can come out of suffering- otherwise God wouldn’t allow it to happen.
Pray for them…what we should do for everyone who suffers.
Don’t assume you know what the people here have been through. Many people I know have endured great suffering. I have read about very holy people who suffered much in their lives- yet they were happy, they accepted the will of God, they knew He loved them in spite of their trials- and many of them are now with him in heaven.
and? I’d hold their hand, cry with them, pray for them- do whatever I could to ease their suffering and the suffering of their loved ones. We should pray for those who suffer, and help them have as comfortable a life as possible in their final days. We do not have the right to decide their life is no longer worth living. Only He who created us has the authority to decide when we are to die.
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paul_post
Guest
Ok, next time in Dutch, German or French??? I understand you are a star in foreign languages.
And Ok, you are right we will follow God’s will. When I see somebody who wants to cross the street and see a car coming, I will not warn the person let it go…it’s his time.
And Ok, you are right we will follow God’s will. When I see somebody who wants to cross the street and see a car coming, I will not warn the person let it go…it’s his time.
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m134e5
Guest
We are to do what we can to preserve life. We are not to end life- good can come out of suffering.
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Eileen_T
Guest
We nursed my father at home the last few weeks of his life. His last three days he was in quite a bit of pain, until we finally convinced the doctor to get rid of the pain.
The trouble is that doctors are trrained to treat the underlying cause of the pain, not get rid of it. As a result many don’t understand about pain relief for those who are dying.
If someone is suffering pain, rather than killing the patient, find a doctor who is well-trained in palliative care.
BTW I work at a geriatric hospital caring for disabled and dying people.
Almost every country in the western/developed world. That is one of the reasons disabled rights activists are fighting euthanasia and assisted suicide legislation around the world.
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WanderAimlessly
Guest
Looks like at least one legal expert agrees:
PF
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paul_post
Guest
Killing innocent people (inlcuding children) with bombs is also illegal
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Eileen_T
Guest
No-one is going to argue with that.
But. . . where did that remark come from and how does it relate to this thread?
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paul_post
Guest
Because no-one does want to see the point and is only accussing without trying to understand the message.
I have just some questions where you can answer a) or b)
1 - your husband/wife/child is very ill
a) you go to a docter
b) you do nothing
2 - the doctor will advise you a treatment
a) you agree, as you want your relative to get better
b) you do not agree
3 - the treatment is not curing the illness, and your relative is getting worse and worse, and the doctor tells you he/she cannot recover and will die at the illness. The doctor advices a medication to bare the pain
a) you agree that your relative gets this medication
b) you do not agree
4) The pain increases and the doctor needs to give a higher doses of the medication.
a) you agree that your relative gets this higher doses
b) you do not agree
5) Again the doctor needs to increase the doses, but at a certain point this higher doses will kill the patient
a) you agree that your relative gets this higher doses
b) you do not agree
Where do you stop???
I have just some questions where you can answer a) or b)
1 - your husband/wife/child is very ill
a) you go to a docter
b) you do nothing
2 - the doctor will advise you a treatment
a) you agree, as you want your relative to get better
b) you do not agree
3 - the treatment is not curing the illness, and your relative is getting worse and worse, and the doctor tells you he/she cannot recover and will die at the illness. The doctor advices a medication to bare the pain
a) you agree that your relative gets this medication
b) you do not agree
4) The pain increases and the doctor needs to give a higher doses of the medication.
a) you agree that your relative gets this higher doses
b) you do not agree
5) Again the doctor needs to increase the doses, but at a certain point this higher doses will kill the patient
a) you agree that your relative gets this higher doses
b) you do not agree
Where do you stop???
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