Jehovah's Witnesses and Salvation

[DelsonJacobs]

One has to wonder why this detail is taken literally, but not the rest of the passage, which talks about the 144,000 being virgins.

Does that mean that anyone who has engaged in the marital embrace is excluded from heaven, or is this not a literal reading of the word “virgin” by JWs?

It is a very odd cafeteria-style “pick-and-choose-at-our-admitted-whim” rule they use in Revelation regarding the 144,000.

The rule is thus:

The number 144,00, they claim, has to be literal because in Revelation chapter 7 the 144,000 of verse 4 is contrasted with a “great multitude, which no one could count” in verse 9. If one is to take literal the claim that the great multitude cannot be counted, then the 144,000 is also literal. If the 144,000 is symbolic then the great multitude can indeed be counted.

Of course this is insane reasoning. The entire vision is in symbols and nowhere does this inspired text tell the reader to make any literal reading of any part, numbers or otherwise.

But here you see an example of what amounts to saying: “We will mark as literal what we want to read as literal and likewise mark as symbolic according to whim, whichever serves our purpose to support our current doctrine.”

So, no, they don’t read the “virgin” text in Revelation 14:4 as literal. Only the number is because that fits their current need.

 

[PRmerger]

But here you see an example of what amounts to saying: “We will mark as literal what we want to read as literal and likewise mark as symbolic according to whim, whichever serves our purpose to support our current doctrine.”

Indeed.

A similar paradigm exists with the Protestant paradigm in which they say, “Where Scripture is silent on an issue, it is prohibited” (i.e. praying the rosary).

And yet, when it serves their purpose they also proclaim, “Where Scripture is silent on an issue, it is permitted” (i.e. contraception).

 

[PRmerger]

It is a very odd cafeteria-style “pick-and-choose-at-our-admitted-whim” rule they use in Revelation regarding the 144,000.

Yep.

Another example is where JWs (and some other Protestants) say, “We baptize the way Jesus was baptized” (Meaning: they baptize in a river).

I like to point out that Jesus was also baptized by his cousin, in his 30s, in the river Jordan.

One has to wonder why JWs do not make it mandatory to be baptized by one’s cousin, in one’s 30s, and fly to the Middle East to be baptized in the river Jordan.

 

[powerofk]

No kidding. A JW I used to work with was talking about the “144,000”. I got him to admit, though, that the Book of Revalation was symbolic imagery. Then, I asked him, “If the rest of the Book of Revalation is symbolic, why isn’t the number 144,000 symbolic?” He was honestly stumped. IIRC, the footnotes of the NAB (as bad as they are in places) states that first century Greek didn’t have a word to describe the concept of infinity (or really, a countless number), so St. John used 1,000 as a multiplier to convey that concept. 144 is simply the square of 12 (12, of course, being a “perfect” number due to the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles).

 

[DelsonJacobs]

No kidding. A JW I used to work with was talking about the “144,000”. I got him to admit, though, that the Book of Revalation was symbolic imagery. Then, I asked him, “If the rest of the Book of Revalation is symbolic, why isn’t the number 144,000 symbolic?” He was honestly stumped. IIRC, the footnotes of the NAB (as bad as they are in places) states that first century Greek didn’t have a word to describe the concept of infinity (or really, a countless number), so St. John used 1,000 as a multiplier to convey that concept. 144 is simply the square of 12 (12, of course, being a “perfect” number due to the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles).

While many of us might like the RSV-CE or other version over the NABRE, when it comes to talking to JWs, the technical notes are in the right places at the right time in that Catholic Bible for speaking to these people. Plus the more modern the language the more impressed they will be because most JWs are convinced that we only use Bibles with archaic language in them.

What may also be impressive to them is the use of the Little Rock Study edition of the NABRE. It’s study notes are a good balance of Tradition where the NABRE may read a bit questionable to some readers, plus the layout and the volume itself contradicts what their Governing Body tells the JWs about Catholics and the Bible–that we don’t have the resources to understand and read it for ourselves.

This doesn’t mean you can’t use the RSV-CE and its 2nd edition (the study New Testament will be likewise as helpful in some places too), but the JW have a superiority complex about their New World Translation, with some believing that it’s not only the most accurate but the easiest to read and the only one that uses modern English. So don’t be afraid or feel bad if you turn to the NABRE or the NJB–it will make quite an impression if you do.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

No kidding. A JW I used to work with was talking about the “144,000”. I got him to admit, though, that the Book of Revalation was symbolic imagery. Then, I asked him, “If the rest of the Book of Revalation is symbolic, why isn’t the number 144,000 symbolic?” He was honestly stumped. IIRC, the footnotes of the NAB (as bad as they are in places) states that first century Greek didn’t have a word to describe the concept of infinity (or really, a countless number), so St. John used 1,000 as a multiplier to convey that concept. 144 is simply the square of 12 (12, of course, being a “perfect” number due to the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles).

This is how I have always viewed this passage. The 12 Tribes and the 12 Apostles by 1000. Meaning the New Israel come to perfection. The great multitude a prophetic look to the future.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

I have always found it interesting when JW’s explain the kingdom that Christ spoke about when talking about Gods salvation for man.
The Kingdom they teach can be described like this:
Material (It is part of the material world, even though they teach it is a renewed material world)
**Remote **** ( It is somewhere in the future )
Temporal ( It will exist in time 1000 years first up and then an endless time however time non the less)
Exclusive ( Only 144,000 which actually gain heaven and only those who receive their doctrine will be eligible for the earthly kingdom ).

Growing up as a Catholic the Church always taught me that the kingdom Christ taught could be described in the following way:
Spiritual ( Christ’s kingdom is of the spirit as he explained to Nicodemus )
Present ( Christ’s kingdom is here and now and available for us to participate in during our life here on earth now )
Eternal ( exists beyond the world of time, as it was then, is now and always will be )
Inclusive ( available to all who choose to come to Christ )**

 

[Miserissima]

I have always found it interesting when JW’s explain the kingdom that Christ spoke about when talking about Gods salvation for man.
The Kingdom they teach can be described like this:
Material (It is part of the material world, even though they teach it is a renewed material world)
**Remote ****** ( It is somewhere in the future )
Temporal ( It will exist in time 1000 years first up and then an endless time however time non the less)
Exclusive ( Only 144,000 which actually gain heaven and only those who receive their doctrine will be eligible for the earthly kingdom ).

Growing up as a Catholic the Church always taught me that the kingdom Christ taught could be described in the following way:
Spiritual ( Christ’s kingdom is of the spirit as he explained to Nicodemus )
Present ( Christ’s kingdom is here and now and available for us to participate in during our life here on earth now )
Eternal ( exists beyond the world of time, as it was then, is now and always will be )
Inclusive ( available to all who choose to come to Christ )

Niiiiice!

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

As a Catholic growing up I was always told to be very cautious of religious groups who pointed the finger and said “your wrong, we are right”. “We have an exclusive right on salvation”.
It was impressed on us to always say when talking with others of different faiths not that they were wrong but that they had part of the truth they just did not have the fullness of the truth. And that when it came to salvation that all are saved at the prerogative of God but to find salvation is more difficult when not in full communion with Christ through his one, holly and apostolic Catholic Church.
For a group to take it upon themselves to not only say who will be invited to the banquet but where they will be sitting is presumption indeed! In Mk10:40 not even Christ
would presume to take away this prerogative of the Father. One can only wonder at the sheer ignorance and impertinence of those mere mortals. “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread”.

 

[PaulDupre1]

For a group to take it upon themselves to not only say who will be invited to the banquet but where they will be sitting is presumption indeed! In Mk10:40 not even Christ
would presume to take away this prerogative of the Father. One can only wonder at the sheer ignorance and impertinence of those mere mortals. “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread”.

Very well put, Matt. The Catholic Church retains the authority to declare that certain persons are certainly in heaven (they are called Saints), but always reminds us that we can never declare who is not in heaven or never will be in heaven. That is God’s alone to decide, and His grace is beyond all human understanding.

I personally believe that many who make it to heaven will be very surprised to see who is there with them.

Paul