JP II said it is OK to worship Mary

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I have a friend who, like so many, is ready to bash Catholics for “worshipping” Mary. Of course I told my friend that we do not do this and explained Marian devotion as best I could.

My friend then produced this quote from Pope John Paul II:

“It is possible to understand the authentic meaning in the worship of Mary in the ecclesial community. . .which furthermore is based on the will of Christ” (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997).

Being that the word “worship” was used specifically, I don’t know how to answer. Furthermore, I cannot find the full text of the above statement to see if it is something that John Paul II actually said…and if he did, what is the complete context?

Does anyone have the full text of this message attributed to John Paul II?
 
Only two sites on Google have this. One is the original site and the second is a conservative forum in which a poster uses the quote from the first site:

On May 7, 1997, Pope John Paul II dedicated his general audience to “the Virgin Mary” and urged all Christians to accept her as their mother. He noted the words spoken by Jesus on the cross to Mary and John – “Woman, behold thy son!” and “Behold thy mother!” (John 19:26, 27), and he claimed that in this statement, “It is possible to understand the authentic meaning in the worship of Mary in the ecclesial community. . .which furthermore is based on the will of Christ” (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997). He said “the history of Christian piety teaches that Mary is the path that leads to Christ, and that filial devotion to her does not at all diminish intimacy with Jesus, but rather, increases it and leads it to very high levels of perfection.” He concluded by asking all Christians “to make room for Mary in their daily lives, acknowledging her providential role in the path of Salvation.”

www.allaboutreligion.org/worship-of-mary-faq.htm
 
Being a European, I’m sure John Paul was using the word worship in it’s archaic sense of honor and venerate, not actually worship.

Jaypeeto3
 
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Monk71:
I have a friend who, like so many, is ready to bash Catholics for “worshipping” Mary. Of course I told my friend that we do not do this and explained Marian devotion as best I could.

My friend then produced this quote from Pope John Paul II:

“It is possible to understand the authentic meaning in the worship of Mary in the ecclesial community. . .which furthermore is based on the will of Christ” (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997).

Being that the word “worship” was used specifically, I don’t know how to answer. Furthermore, I cannot find the full text of the above statement to see if it is something that John Paul II actually said…and if he did, what is the complete context?

Does anyone have the full text of this message attributed to John Paul II?
Click to expand...
I couldn’t find the whole quote, either.
Perhaps “the worship of Mary” means the way Mary worshipped God - in complete obedience, as opposed to worshipping Mary.
Out of context, as you say, it could mean a lot of different things.
Ask your friend for the full quote - he found this much.
 
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Jaypeeto3:
Being a European, I’m sure John Paul was using the word worship in it’s archaic sense of honor and venerate, not actually worship.

Jaypeeto3
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Yes, I wonder if it is incorrectly translated. Worship in English used to mean “honor” as in calling a king, “Your Worship”.

He is clearly saying Mary helps us in our path to her Son and he is clearly not saying that she gives us Salvation. It is just another case of Protestants not understanding Mary as intercessor.
 
OH MY! The secret’s out of the bag!

How could the Pope have been so loose lipped as to have let the world know that, all the other statements by himself and other popes to the contrary, that we really DO worship Mary?

He may have been mistranslated, or it could have been a poorly worded statement on his part, but there is ample evidence in Church documents to refute this charge.
 
You should also point out to your friend that (a) if Catholics really worshipped Mary and taught the worship of Mary, he/she would not have to find out about it in a single translated quote from a daily audience. Further, if Catholics really worshipped Mary and taught the worship of Mary we certainly would not commit the blasphemy (if worship of Mary was something we believed) of denying over and over and over that we do worship her. What idiot worships (worships, mind you) a god or other being and then spends countless hours denying it to anybody and everybody? It’s crazy when you think about it.

As to the quote, if the person cannot find the original in the original language then there’s not much more to go on. Sometimes foreign words do get incorrectly translated as “worship”. In particular, the Latin ‘veneror’ can mean ‘worship’ or it can mean ‘venerate’. I’m no Latin scholar but websites like this will demonstrate my point. I once found a Church document (Latin) that had been translated on the EWTN site speaking of the worship of Mary. When I asked them about it they agreed that the Latin word ‘veneror’ had been incorrectly translated in the context, and they fixed their copy.

Definition of ‘veneror’
 
Joe Gloor:
I couldn’t find the whole quote, either.
Perhaps “the worship of Mary” means the way Mary worshipped God - in complete obedience, as opposed to worshipping Mary.
Out of context, as you say, it could mean a lot of different things.
Ask your friend for the full quote - he found this much.
Click to expand...
I pretty agree with you on this one. Without the context of the whole passage, it could mean anything. This is a typical protestant tactic, to take something out of context and declare it as evidence.

I would also say that this sentence is a reference to the “essence of the way Mary worshipped God”. And by studying her worship (otherwise staed as “worship of Mary”), we can have a more fully developed worship of God.

Here is an example of what John Paul said in one of his speeches about Mary."
“In the exercise of divine worship Mary is also teacher of the spiritual life for every Christian. Thus have the faithful seen her: they look to Mary to make, like her, their own lives into worship of God, and to make from this worship a commitment for life. Mary is above all the model of that kind of worship that consists in making one’s own life into an offering to God: “Behold the handmaid of the Lord, may it be done to me according to your word” (56). And Mary’s “yes” is for all Christians a lesson and an example to be converted into obedience to the Father’s will along the way of and amid one’s own sanctification, and in a special way for priests (57).”

Some devious protestant could take the second sentence to mean worship of Mary, if properly restated and out of context.

Regards,
Calvin
 
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Monk71:
I have a friend who, like so many, is ready to bash Catholics for “worshipping” Mary. Of course I told my friend that we do not do this and explained Marian devotion as best I could.

My friend then produced this quote from Pope John Paul II:

“It is possible to understand the authentic meaning in the worship of Mary in the ecclesial community. . .which furthermore is based on the will of Christ” (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997).

Being that the word “worship” was used specifically, I don’t know how to answer. Furthermore, I cannot find the full text of the above statement to see if it is something that John Paul II actually said…and if he did, what is the complete context?

Does anyone have the full text of this message attributed to John Paul II?
Click to expand...
I suspect the original quote was in Latin and what we’re seeing is a sloppy translation. Since it is church doctrine that we worship only God there is no other logical conclusion one can come to.
 
My guess is something was lost in translation. Natively the Pope isn’t going to speak English when addressing foreign crowds.
 
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Monk71:
I have a friend who, like so many, is ready to bash Catholics for “worshipping” Mary. Of course I told my friend that we do not do this and explained Marian devotion as best I could.

My friend then produced this quote from Pope John Paul II:

“It is possible to understand the authentic meaning in the worship of Mary in the ecclesial community. . .which furthermore is based on the will of Christ” (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997).

Being that the word “worship” was used specifically, I don’t know how to answer. Furthermore, I cannot find the full text of the above statement to see if it is something that John Paul II actually said…and if he did, what is the complete context?

Does anyone have the full text of this message attributed to John Paul II?
Click to expand...
Something is very wrong with this info you have been given. I found the speech from John Paul to the General Audience on May 7th, 1997. If you review one of the links given above, you will find more info. However, something looks really fishy here. The actual speech is very close to what these protestants are saying, but the protestants have reworded these sentences.

Here is the link the Speech:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_07051997_en.html

Here is the paragraph that I think these guys dorked up.

“In the light of this entrustment to his beloved disciple, one can understand the authentic meaning of Marian devotion in the ecclesial community. In fact, it places Christians in Jesus’ filial relationship to his mother, putting them in a condition to grow in intimacy with both of them.”

So ya see, the “TACTIC” has been exposed.

Regards,
Calvin
 
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VociMike:
You should also point out to your friend that (a) if Catholics really worshipped Mary and taught the worship of Mary, he/she would not have to find out about it in a single translated quote from a daily audience. Further, if Catholics really worshipped Mary and taught the worship of Mary we certainly would not commit the blasphemy (if worship of Mary was something we believed) of denying over and over and over that we do worship her. What idiot worships (worships, mind you) a god or other being and then spends countless hours denying it to anybody and everybody? It’s crazy when you think about it.
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I like your logic…I’m gonna borrow it for a discussion I’m having:D
 
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VociMike:
You should also point out to your friend that (a) if Catholics really worshipped Mary and taught the worship of Mary, he/she would not have to find out about it in a single translated quote from a daily audience. Further, if Catholics really worshipped Mary and taught the worship of Mary we certainly would not commit the blasphemy (if worship of Mary was something we believed) of denying over and over and over that we do worship her. What idiot worships (worships, mind you) a god or other being and then spends countless hours denying it to anybody and everybody? It’s crazy when you think about it.
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I agree this is good logic, and one I’ve used when contronted on pagan worship. How can what Catholics do be considered pagan worship, when we deny worshipping pagan “god’s”? How could we worship Christ, if we were pagan’s? Such activities would not only incense the pagan “gods”, but if we deny worshipping pagan “gods” and claim there is but one God in the undivided Trinity Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, it couldn’t qualify as pagan worship at all, and mayeb the fact that we use a halo to represent holiness, simply because it makes sense from a visual and artistics perspective? And we don’t bow down to worship ra or baal…
 
Good Catch Chipper…So they weren’t quoting word for word JP II in that article. It was an article about JP II’s talk at the general audience! That is a good one!
 
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Chipper:
The actual speech is very close to what these protestants are saying, but the protestants have reworded these sentences.

Here is the link the Speech:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_07051997_en.html

Here is the paragraph that I think these guys dorked up.

“In the light of this entrustment to his beloved disciple, one can understand the authentic meaning of Marian devotion in the ecclesial community. In fact, it places Christians in Jesus’ filial relationship to his mother, putting them in a condition to grow in intimacy with both of them.”
Click to expand...
Protestants fabricating “evidence” that Catholics worship Mary? I’m shocked. Shocked! :eek: :rolleyes:
 
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Chipper:
Something is very wrong with this info you have been given. I found the speech from John Paul to the General Audience on May 7th, 1997. If you review one of the links given above, you will find more info. However, something looks really fishy here. The actual speech is very close to what these protestants are saying, but the protestants have reworded these sentences.

Here is the link the Speech:

Link to the real document
Click to expand...
Here is the paragraph that I think these guys dorked up.

“In the light of this entrustment to his beloved disciple, one can understand the authentic meaning of Marian devotion in the ecclesial community. In fact, it places Christians in Jesus’ filial relationship to his mother, putting them in a condition to grow in intimacy with both of them.”

So ya see, the “TACTIC” has been exposed.

Regards,
Calvin
It’s called “doctoring” a text…also “False Witness” (See Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.)

Man! I HATE when they do that! :mad:

However, I LOVE it because it proves them to be every bit as desperate to find any aspect of Catholic faith to attack. Their dishonesty should embarrass them and (if they are thinking people) cause them to question if this is the only place that they have been intentionally misinformed.

Isn’t this a characteristic of a false teacher?
 
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BlackKnight:
Maybe your friend needs to see THIS .
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On the face of it, this is difficult to answer. Pius IX’s words do seem excessive. But let’s put them in context. First of all, the quotation is part of Pius IX’s letter to the world’s bishops consulting them on the wisdom of defining the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. In other words, he is speaking within a Marian document. Second, Pius IX is using the papal “we” in expressing his own opinion and love for Mary. He is not making a formal doctrinal pronouncement. Third, this statement has to be placed within the context of the whole worship and life of the Church.

Huh? Pius is “expressing his own opinion”. THEN, he says that his opinion has to be placed within the context of the whole WORSHIP (nobody worships Mary!) and life of the “Church”. Capital C. Mary being added (melted?, glued?) into the Rock?
 
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Monk71:
I have a friend who, like so many, is ready to bash Catholics for “worshipping” Mary. Of course I told my friend that we do not do this and explained Marian devotion as best I could.

My friend then produced this quote from Pope John Paul II:

“It is possible to understand the authentic meaning in the worship of Mary in the ecclesial community. . .which furthermore is based on the will of Christ” (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997).

Being that the word “worship” was used specifically, I don’t know how to answer. Furthermore, I cannot find the full text of the above statement to see if it is something that John Paul II actually said…and if he did, what is the complete context?

Does anyone have the full text of this message attributed to John Paul II?
Click to expand...
Did he write this in Polish or Italian or Latin? The English translation of worship may have a different meaning to the interpretor.
 
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