Judicial intemperance - Scalia flips message to doubting Thomases

[Jeffrey]

By Laurel J. Sweet
Monday, March 27, 2006 - Updated: 12:36 PM EST

Minutes after receiving the Eucharist at a special Mass for lawyers and politicians at Cathedral of the Holy Cross, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia had a special blessing of his own for those who question his impartiality when it comes to matters of church and state.

** “You know what I say to those people?” Scalia, 70, replied, making an obscene gesture under his chin when asked by a Herald reporter if he fends off a lot of flak for publicly celebrating his conservative Roman Catholic beliefs**

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news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=132311

 

[chicago]

I didn’t realize he was that old. My, how time flies! Pretty soon we’ll be talking about his inevitible retirement/death like we have been with some of the others.

 

[Elzee]

Well, that’s a great way to react after just receiving our Lord. Geesh. What a horrible way to represent himself and our Catholic faith.

It’s mindless self-control like this that perpetuates the Evangelical mind-set that Catholics just ‘go through the motions’ when it comes to our faith.

He knows better and should act accordingly.

 

[Jeffrey]

Eyup… as a side note… I didn’t mean to bold his reaction… it was too late to edit it.

Elzee:

Well, that’s a great way to react after just receiving our Lord. Geesh. What a horrible way to represent himself and our Catholic faith.

It’s mindless self-control like this that perpetuates the Evangelical mind-set that Catholics just ‘go through the motions’ when it comes to our faith.

He knows better and should act accordingly.

 

[geezerbob]

Justice Scalia has made a public statement that he did not flip the bird but made a dismissive Italian gesture. If the picture that was allegedly taken is published, then maybe we can see for ourselves.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

geezerbob:

Justice Scalia has made a public statement that he did not flip the bird but made a dismissive Italian gesture. If the picture that was allegedly taken is published, then maybe we can see for ourselves.

How much you want to bet that it will not see the light of day.

PF

 

[chicago]

geezerbob:

Justice Scalia has made a public statement that he did not flip the bird but made a dismissive Italian gesture. If the picture that was allegedly taken is published, then maybe we can see for ourselves.

Well, doesn’t that Italian gesture generally indicate the same sort of thing in it’s tenor of dismissiveness? That’s certainly how I have always understood it.

 

[Elzee]

geezerbob:

Justice Scalia has made a public statement that he did not flip the bird but made a dismissive Italian gesture. If the picture that was allegedly taken is published, then maybe we can see for ourselves.

Either way it’s inappropriate, and is not a good reflection on the Catholic faith, the Mass, and the intimate encounter he just had with Jesus Christ. Again - more fuel for the fire.

I’ve heard he is a man of strong faith; he just failed to demonstrate it and shine the light of it on the Church at a very opportune and public moment.

 

[rlg94086]

chicago:

Well, doesn’t that Italian gesture generally indicate the same sort of thing in it’s tenor of dismissiveness? That’s certainly how I have always understood it.

I guess it depends. I found this on the net, and it matches what little I know of Italian gestures from my Sicilian friends. Now the english language translations given are tame, but the equivalent “America’s gesture” is obscene. I’ll give Justice Scalia the benefit of the doubt and accept the english translation.

In Italy, a flick of the chin means “buzz off” or " to heck with you". It is equal to America’s middle finger gesture. Anyone who has accidentally cut off another driver knows this overt gesture only too well.

italiansrus.com/articles/subs/body_language.htm

 

[rlg94086]

If he meant “buzz off” or “to heck with you” I don’t think that is a terrible reflection on the Catholic faith. I think it’s a good response to people who criticize us for practicing our faith.

Elzee:

Either way it’s inappropriate, and is not a good reflection on the Catholic faith, the Mass, and the intimate encounter he just had with Jesus Christ. Again - more fuel for the fire.

I’ve heard he is a man of strong faith; he just failed to demonstrate it and shine the light of it on the Church at a very opportune and public moment.

 

[jimmy]

Elzee:

Either way it’s inappropriate, and is not a good reflection on the Catholic faith, the Mass, and the intimate encounter he just had with Jesus Christ. Again - more fuel for the fire.

I’ve heard he is a man of strong faith; he just failed to demonstrate it and shine the light of it on the Church at a very opportune and public moment.

If it doesn’t mean the same thing as flipping the finger then maybe it is not as bad as you are making it out to be. He said that he was not giving the finger, isn’t it best to just assume that he had the best intentions when he did it?

 

[Elzee]

jimmy:

If it doesn’t mean the same thing as flipping the finger then maybe it is not as bad as you are making it out to be. He said that he was not giving the finger, isn’t it best to just assume that he had the best intentions when he did it?

I think his comment ‘You know what I say to those people’ coupled with the gesture doesn’t show he had the ‘best of intentions’. At best he was perhaps just being flippant, but I didn’t take it that way. I could be wrong.

I think the ‘best of intentions’ would have been a calm response, minus any controversial gestures, especially since he was just walking out of Mass.

 

[SemperJase]

Elzee:

I think his comment ‘You know what I say to those people’ coupled with the gesture doesn’t show he had the ‘best of intentions’. At best he was perhaps just being flippant, but I didn’t take it that way. I could be wrong.

I think the ‘best of intentions’ would have been a calm response, minus any controversial gestures, especially since he was just walking out of Mass.

Let’s keep some perspective. A major newspaper not known for its love of catholics that makes a catholic look bad. Call me skeptical until we hear both sides. The tone of the first story comes across as innocent report says "I was just standing there and he gave me a rude gesutre (probably “the finger”).

There was some clarification later from MSNBC:

Scalia was leaving Mass on Sunday at the Cathedral of the Holy Cross when the reporter asked the justice if he had to deal with much flak related to his conservative Roman Catholic beliefs, according to the newspaper.
“You know what I say to those people?” Scalia said before making the gesture, according to the paper’s account. “That’s Sicilian.”

The paper said that Scalia also said: “This is my spiritual life. I shall lead it the way I like.”

That last sentence leads me to believe that Scalia thought his faith was being criticized. He was responding to theoretical critics (“those people”) who may give him “flak” for his beliefs. In context, it wasn’t a brush off to the reporter.

He is entitled to his beliefs which the question implies he is not. Good for Scalia. Instead of criticizing him for being rude, we should admire him for not being ashamed of his faith. A nice change in a public figure.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Elzee:

This was reported by a newspaper which is a charter member of the “I hate Antonin Scalia Fan Club”. The Sicilians I know tell me the gesture he used means, “Get Lost!” or, “Buss Off!” which is completely consistant with what he’s said he’d wish the worst and most irrational of his critics (those who question his integrity and criticize his every move).

This is nothing like what we mean when we flash some miscreant the middle finger…

Elzee:

I think his comment ‘You know what I say to those people’ coupled with the gesture doesn’t show he had the ‘best of intentions’. At best he was perhaps just being flippant, but I didn’t take it that way. I could be wrong.

I think the ‘best of intentions’ would have been a calm response, minus any controversial gestures, especially since he was just walking out of Mass.

…Do you have any idea how you’d react if several people made careers out of questioning your integrity and honesty and criticizing everything you did, and kept on doing this only because of political or religious animus. Please think carefully before you criticize Mr. Scalia any further. After all, wasn’t it our Lord who said…?

*"Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.

Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove that splinter from your eye,’ while the wooden beam is in your eye?

You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye. Matt.1-7*

I don’t like what Antonin Scalia did, but that’s between him and our Lord, as is whatever he’s doing for Lent (The Globe also criticized him for was that he wouldn’t say what he was doing for Lent - Do you want to join them on that one?).

I think our Lord is clear about how we are to treat our enemies, but we have to acknowledge that most of the people in that church were not his friends and probably did not consider him to be their brother in Christ and probably felt no need to treat him as such.

I hope you noticed that the Globe didn’t feel any need to report on what precipitated the “Buzz-off” sign. Aren’t you in the least bit curious as to what these people did that so infuriated YOUR brother in Christ that he felt he had to tell them to “Buzz off”? Or, do you believe that the only thing that mattered was what he did in response?

In Christ, Michael

 

[chicago]

Here’s the AP story, which seems to present things straightforwardly:

suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-scalia28.html

‘‘It was a hand off the chin gesture that was meant to be dismissive,’’ Supreme Court spokeswoman Kathy Arberg said.

Scalia, 70, is known for wisecracks in and out of court. The sign he used is frequently used by Italians to express displeasure with someone – from mild to deep irritation.

Just how he meant it, whether in jest or with deeper (to put it gently) sentiment I suppose we’ll never know.

 

[Hildebrand]

chicago:

Well, doesn’t that Italian gesture generally indicate the same sort of thing in it’s tenor of dismissiveness? That’s certainly how I have always understood it.

Italians use their hands in communication all the time.

There is a big difference between the “bird” (f-u) and the Italian gesture (I don’t care what you say!).

 

[Digitonomy]

Traditional Ang:

Please think carefully before you criticize Mr. Scalia any further…

I don’t like what Antonin Scalia did

Traditional Ang:

I hope you noticed that the Globe didn’t feel any need to report on what precipitated the “Buzz-off” sign. Aren’t you in the least bit curious as to what these people did that so infuriated YOUR brother in Christ that he felt he had to tell them to “Buzz off”? Or, do you believe that the only thing that mattered was what he did in response?

When the vice president uses obscenities in public to describe a member of Congress or a reporter, it’s news regardless of what may have precipitated it. I expect that if the earlier events are interesting, the reporter will include them in the story. If not, a high public official behaving inappropriately is still news even without the setup.

Scalia making contentious or rude gestures, or Cheney using foul language - neither one bothers me, and I find both stories entertaining. However, it’s certainly fair game for the press to report on it. I would expect as much if I were a public figure, and I doubt it bothers Scalia much - he’ll probably just flip off the next reporter to ask about it.

 

[Elzee]

Michael, Thanks for the good additional information. Please know I’m not denying the telephone pole in my own eye and I certainly agree it’s none of our business what he’s doing for Lent. I also realize the gesture isn’t as obscene as another poster thought it might be and I’m in no way questioning his relationship with our Lord. And I realize he might have been reacting to something very infuriating. I imagine that happens to him quite a bit and I’m sure it gets old and tiresome and frustrating and that’s why we need to pray for everyone on the Court, but especially our fellow Catholics.

With all that said, I understand you don’t agree and I understand the good points you made; but with all that in mind, I still think his response was inappropriate.

 

[Hildebrand]

Update:

Justice Scalia Chastises Boston Newspaper

Scalia said in his letter the gesture is not obscene at all, but dismissive. Scalia said he had explained the gesture’s meaning to no avail to the reporter, whom he referred to as “an up-and-coming ‘gotcha’ star.”

To back his interpretation of the gesture, Scalia in his letter quoted from Luigi Barzini’s book, “The Italians:” “The extended fingers of one hand moving slowly back and forth under the raised chin means ‘I couldn’t care less. It’s no business of mine. Count me out.’”

“From watching too many episodes of the Sopranos, your staff seems to have acquired the belief that any Sicilian gesture is obscene _ especially when made by an ‘Italian jurist.’ (I am, by the way, an American jurist.),” he wrote. The Herald had referred to him as an “Italian-American jurist.”

I find it ironic that the liberal Christians are always berating faithful Christians for speaking the truth about the evils of abortion, homosexuality, suicide and euthanasia. They call faithful Catholics, Pharisees, for “judging” others (“How dare you tell someone who is a practicing homosexual that homosexuality is sinful, you should not judge!”).

However, these same liberals are willing to trip over their own feet in order to slander someone they despise, some they consider to be a Pharisee. In the end, they show themselves to be what they hate, Pharisees.