Just how "traditional" can the N.O. be?

[1962Missal]

At what point does traditionalism become abuse?

Ignoring the Altar of sacrifice to use the old High Altar?

Celebration ad orientam when not absolutely necessary?

Silent Canon/Eucharistic Prayer?

Communion under only one kind?

Communion a: kneeling, b: at the rail c: only on the tongue.

Use of the maniple.

Insertion of prayers at the foot of the altar/last gospel?

Justin

 

[deogratias]

I would love to respond to your questions but they are not clear to me - I am confused.

Are you talking about the Mass in accordance with the 1962 Missal?

Are you asking about the Normative Mass celebrated in Latin?

 

[Crusader]

1962Missal:

At what point does traditionalism become abuse?

1.) Ignoring the Altar of sacrifice to use the old High Altar?

2.) Celebration ad orientam when not absolutely necessary?

3.) Silent Canon/Eucharistic Prayer?

4.) Communion under only one kind?

5.) Communion a: kneeling, b: at the rail c: only on the tongue.

6.) Use of the maniple.

7.) Insertion of prayers at the foot of the altar/last gospel?

Justin

1.) The “old High Altar” can still be the altar of sacrifice. Are you suggesting someone would actually stand behind the altar of sacrifice to celebrate the Mass on what amounts to a creedance table? That’s too weird to even contemplate.

2.) That’s up the celebrant.

3.) A liturgical abuse.

4.) See #2.

5.) That’s up to the recipient – the priest cannot control that, even in a practical sense.

6.) Not an liturgical abuse, but an example of ignoring the Church.

7.) Personal addition to the Mass which is not allowed. An abuse.

What you suggested are not “traditionalist” items per se – just odd, no, very odd sceanarios.

 

[Iohannes]

Crusader,

Do you even know what a maniple is and what it stood for?

 

[Iohannes]

Technically, I think the Prayers at the foot of the altar and Last Gospel can be recited at the Latin NO, because both of them are technically not part the Mass.

High Altars can always be used. INFACT Ad Orientem is the Normal way of celebrating Mass even in the Novus Ordo!!!

Latin is the normal Language even in the Novus Ordo

Communion in Tongue is still the norm worldwide with indults given for Communion in Hand.

Silent Eucharistic prayer is a stretch, it may be an abuse in the Novus Ordo. But hey the priest should keep on doing until Rome caves in and permit it like altar girls and Communion-in-hand.

Communion under one species is still permitted, One can still receive the full Body and Blood of Christ by recieving the Host alone.

 

[deogratias]

If you are referring to the N.O. Mass and not the Mass in accordance with the 1962 Missal - I would concur with the answers given by Crusdader

I assume by your name that you usually attend a TLM and know there are different norms.

Regarding the canon - it would be considered a liturgical abuse if this were said other than silently in a TLM and it would be an abuse if said silently at a NOM.

Even a Normative Mass in Latin must follow the same order of the Mass and GIRM that a vernacular does.

 

[ybeayf]

Regarding the canon - it would be considered a liturgical abuse if this were said other than silently in a TLM and it would be an abuse if said silently at a NOM.

Just out of curiosity… I have skimmed through the GIRM (in English) and various other liturgical instructions issued by the Vatican after the liturgical reform, and have never seen a specific instruction that says the canon must be said aloud (except the words of institution, I seem to recall, must be said loudly and clearly). Is there anywhere that specifies this, or is it something that’s just understood? Was the practice of the silent canon specifically abolished?

Also, if the canon is indeed specifically required to be said aloud, would it be permissible to cover it with the singing of an extended Sanctus or something similar?

 

[deogratias]

In the 1975 GIRM it says

The eucharistic prayer calls for all to listen in silent reverence, but also to take part through the acclamations for which the rite makes provision

Well if it were said silently we could not listen or take part in teh acclamations so I guess that was the logic.

What I find more interesting is how we went from one Canon to several Eucharistic prayers - .

 

[deogratias]

Johannes, I don’t know what you think the maniple represents but I was taught that it represented the the handkerchief with which Veronica wiped the face of Jesus and that it was symbolic of good works.

Originally that is what it was - a handkerchief with which the priest dried the perspiration from his face while saying Mass.

It evolved to become a band of material the same color and quality as the chausuble and stole and was worn on the left arm above the wrist so that an equal portion hung on each side of the arm.

 

[katolik]

1962Missal:

At what point does traditionalism become abuse?

Ignoring the Altar of sacrifice to use the old High Altar?

Celebration ad orientam when not absolutely necessary?

Silent Canon/Eucharistic Prayer?

Communion under only one kind?

Communion a: kneeling, b: at the rail c: only on the tongue.

Use of the maniple.

Insertion of prayers at the foot of the altar/last gospel?

Justin

I have seen NO Masses during which the priest used the maniple and recited the Eucharistic Prayer silently during the NO. The maniple is allowed but it is not obligatory anymore[its in some document somewhere]

 

[deogratias]

To date, for the celebration of the N.O. Mass, a priest wears the amice, alb, cincture, stole and chasuble. (With the promulgation of the new Roman Missal in 1969, the use of the maniple was suppressed.)

 

[Iohannes]

deogratias:

Johannes, I don’t know what you think the maniple represents but I was taught that it represented the the handkerchief with which Veronica wiped the face of Jesus and that it was symbolic of good works.

Originally that is what it was - a handkerchief with which the priest dried the perspiration from his face while saying Mass.

It evolved to become a band of material the same color and quality as the chausuble and stole and was worn on the left arm above the wrist so that an equal portion hung on each side of the arm.

Thanks for answering for Crusader.

Another meaning is that the priest has no fear of suffering or labor.

 

[ybeayf]

Excessively literal reading time…

In the 1975 GIRM it says

The eucharistic prayer calls for all to listen in silent reverence, but also to take part through the acclamations for which the rite makes provision

Well if it were said silently we could not listen or take part in teh acclamations so I guess that was the logic.

I’m not sure about what the Latin says, but the part that you just quoted says that all should listen, but it doesn’t say that they have to listen to the eucharistic prayer. They could just as easily be listening to the choir singing while the prayer is being said, or to the silence. For the acclamations, the priest could say aloud the words immediately preceding them (similar to the Byzantine rite), to cue the faithful to say them, i.e. silence while the elements are being consecrated, then the priest says “Mysterium fidei” and the faithful respond with the acclamation. There could even be extended musical pieces composed for the acclamation, which would then cover the prayer until the ending doxology. Or am I missing the spirit of what was intended?

 

[deogratias]

I was trying to be brief but that sentence is the last sentence in the section called Eucharistic Prayers and does refer to that.

Eucharistic Prayer

1. Now the center and summit of the entire celebration begins: the eucharistic prayer, a prayer of thanksgiving and sanctification. The priest invites the people to lift up their hearts to the Lord in prayer and thanks; he unites them with himself in the prayer he addresses in their name to the Father through Jesus Christ. The meaning of the prayer is that the entire congregation joins itself to Christ in acknowledging the great things God has done and in offering the sacrifice.

1. The chief elements making up the eucharistic prayer are these:

a. Thanksgiving (expressed especially in the preface): in the name of the entire people of God, the priest praises the Father and gives thanks to him for the whole work of salvation or for some special aspect of it that corresponds to the day, feast, or season.

b. Acclamation: joining with the angels, the congregation sings or recites the “Sanctus” This acclamation is an intrinsic part of the eucharistic prayer and all the people join with the priest in singing or reciting it.

c. Epiclesis: in special invocations the Church calls on God’s power and asks that the gifts offered by human hands be consecrated, that is, become Christ’s body and blood, and that the victim to be received in communion be the source of salvation for those who will partake.

d. Institution narrative and consecration: in the words and actions of Christ, that sacrifice is celebrated which he himself instituted at the Last Supper, when, under the appearances of bread and wine, he offered his body and blood, gave them to his apostles to eat and drink, then commanded that they carry on this mystery.

e. Anamnesis: in fulfillment of the command received from Christ through the apostles, the Church keeps his memorial by recalling especially his passion, resurrection, and ascension.

f. Offering: in this memorial, the Church-and in particular the Church here and now assembled-offers the spotless victim to the Father in the Holy Spirit. The Church’s intention is that the faithful not only offer this victim but also learn to offer themselves and so to surrender themselves, through Christ the Mediator, to an ever more complete union with the Father and with each other, so that at last God may be all in all.[42]

g. Intercessions: the intercessions make it clear that the eucharist is celebrated in communion with the entire Church of heaven and earth and that the offering is made for the Church and all its members, living and dead, who are called to share in the salvation and redemption purchased by Christ’s body and blood.

h. Final doxology: the praise of God is expressed in the doxology, to which the people’s acclamation is an assent and a conclusion.

The eucharistic prayer calls for all to listen in silent reverence, but also to take part through the acclamations for which the rite makes provision

I don’t know how you could interpret this any other way.

 

[deogratias]

Johannes - I was not answering FOR Crusader but I wasn’t sure if you were really asking a question because you did not know or if you were being confrontational.

Anyway I have also heard another symbolism of it

That the maniple symbolizes a handkerchief to wipe off the mind and heart; to banish sloth; and to inspire a love of good works.
As the priest places the maniple over his arm he prays, “May I deserve, O Lord, to so bear the maniple of tears and sorrow, that I may receive with joy the reward of my labors.”

 

[ybeayf]

Again, all I see it saying is that the faithful must listen in silence and take part in the acclamations. I see nothing that says the prayer must be recited aloud (except for the acclamations, of course), or that the prayer may not be covered with music.

 

[Crusader]

Iohannes:

Crusader,

Do you even know what a maniple is and what it stood for?

Did you know that little rag that used to hang from a priest’s left arm would be invisable unless they wore one of those funny Roman chasuables that look a great deal like a bulletproof vest?

 

[Crusader]

Iohannes:

1.) Technically, I think the Prayers at the foot of the altar and Last Gospel can be recited at the Latin NO, because both of them are technically not part the Mass.

2.) High Altars can always be used. INFACT Ad Orientem is the Normal way of celebrating Mass even in the Novus Ordo!!!

3.) Latin is the normal Language even in the Novus Ordo

4.) Communion in Tongue is still the norm worldwide with indults given for Communion in Hand.

5.) Silent Eucharistic prayer is a stretch, it may be an abuse in the Novus Ordo. But hey the priest should keep on doing until Rome caves in and permit it like altar girls and Communion-in-hand.

Communion under one species is still permitted, One can still receive the full Body and Blood of Christ by recieving the Host alone.

1.) The prayers at the foot of the altar are part of the penitential rite in the tridentine Mass! They would be an illegal add-on to the Novus Ordo Mass.

2.) There is no “high altar”, only an altar of sacrifice. Many former “high altars” now serve as creedence tables.

3.) “Normal”?

4.) “Norm”?

5.) It’s an abuse.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

The prayers at the foot of the altar and the last Gospel would not technically be abuse because, by their nature, they take place before and after the N.O. and thus would fall outside of the Mass itself. Essentially, there would be prayers at the foot of the altar, then an N.O. Mass, then a last Gospel.

 

[Iohannes]

The Silent Canon in the Novus Ordo is an abuse, by why not continue doing it until Rome caves in and make it ok just like they caved in for Communion–in-the hand, and altar girls?