Kujo313's Assertions About Catholic Marian Beliefs (Isis!?...Goddess!?)

[Church_Militant]

Originally Posted by kujo313

Too much of the Catholic “Mary” is like the goddess Isis. There are too many simularities.
The true Mary knew that she, herself, needed a Savior.

Luke 1:46-47
And Mary said:“My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.” (NIV)
God my Savior. (NASB)
Savior God. (The Message)
my Savior. (Amplified)
my Savior (NLT)
my Saviour. (KJV)
my Savior (ESV)
(and on and on. tired of clipping and pasting)
Mary knew the Scriptures by quoting from the Old Testament when she was with her cousin, Elizabeth.

Jesus refused to exault Mary. He, instead, exaulted everybody who hears the word of God and obeys it.
He didn’t say, “Usher in this blessed woman.” Rather, He replied that anyone who obeys God’ s Word is equal with Mary.
Jesus is again robbed of glory and honor that He alone deserves. Rather than recognizing Him as the only sinless One, Catholicism contradicts Scripture and insists that Mary was also sinless.
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Romans 3:23

“For he hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” 2 Corinthians 5:21
Romans 5: 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Man-made “traditions” gave a “sinless life” to another other than Jesus.
You are looking too far and too hard at somebody else besides Jesus.There are too many errors in this post to refute on the thread it was posted on, so I have opened this one so that Kujo will see that he’s been fed a long line of a-C malarkey.

 

[Church_Militant]

There is no man made tradition in this…this is scriptural.

"The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence." LINK

You have been listening to far too many anti-Catholics if you assert that there is common ground between Catholic Marian belief and Isis because that is staright up bunkum. I note that you have not attempted to answer the original question. This is one of Jack Chick’s chunks of misinformation and though it helps him sell his tracts and make a living, it’s based on connections that are not there.

Mary

Chick makes a lot of the conventional anti-Marian arguments that are common in Fundamentalism: that Mary is not the Mother of God, that we are not to ask for her intercession, that statues of her should not be venerated, that she was not preserved by God’s grace from sin, etc.[67]

What is distinctive about Chick’s approach is his is claim that “the ‘Mother of God’ that Catholics worship is not the Mary of the Bible. Satan has tricked them into worshiping a counterfeit goddess.”[68] The basis for this claim is a story he borrowed from Alexander Hislop, according to which there was a queen in ancient Babylon named Semiramis. She married her son, Nimrod. After his death, she claimed to have had a virgin birth of another son, Tammuz, who was Nimrod reincarnated. This pair of Semiramis and Tammuz was often depicted in artwork as a mother and child. They form the basis of all of the mother-child statues in the different religions of the world, and when Catholics worship Mary and the Baby Jesus, they are actually worshiping Semiramis and Tammuz.

What is one to make of this? Setting aside the fact that Catholics do not worship Mary, it is still complete nonsense. Hislop’s wild ideas cannot be substantiated historically.[69] We have mother and child images from cultures that predate Babylon. Further, if you want to depict a famous mother, a good way of doing it is by picturing her holding her child. Thus before literacy became widespread Christians often would picture Mary holding the Baby Jesus, and it became an established image in Christian art. LINK

Be sure to scroll down to this part, but if ya read the whole LONG thing you might get mad at whoever taught you all this anti-Catholic trash.

 

[Eden]

I hope Kujo will realize some day that he has allowed himself to become the mouthpiece for the great deceiver with his distain for the Mother of God.

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” (Gen. 3:15)

As Mary is the New Eve, she stood in opposition to satan when she said, "“let it be done to me according to thy word.” (Luke 1:38)

If you are not fulfilling the biblical prophecy that generations will call her “Blessed”, then you are not speaking the Word of God.

 

[Magicsilence]

No one got a chance to say it. But kujo said that one of the things that proved Mary’s sinfulness was the fact she offered sacrifice. Luke 2: 22- 28

Mary was not offering a sacrifice for her sin. It was Jewish law that after birth a woman was “not clean”. Thus she had to offer sacrifice to purify herself. The mother had to be purified, the child had to be redeemed. This was not a sacrifice for sin, but to purify the mother.

Thought id clear that up.

In Christ.

Andre.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Peace be with you!

I wonder if Kujo realizes that Mary’s greatest title came about to ensure a belief in Jesus as divine. Theotokos (Greek) was given to her in response to the Arian heresy, claiming Jesus was not God. This name means, “God bearer”. Its Latin equivalent (and English as well) is “Mater Dei”, the Mother of God. This title is not to grant Mary some divine qualities, but to ensure the divine nature of Christ. If Mary is the “Mother of God”, then Jesus is God, plain and simple.

P.S. One more thing. Kujo also said, “Rather, He replied that anyone who obeys God’ s Word is equal with Mary. Jesus is again robbed of glory and honor that He alone deserves.”

Jesus never told anyone “You are equal with my mother if you obey God’s Word.” You are making assumptions. And Mary said, “All generations shall call me blessed.” Uh, oh. Protestants don’t do that! Sounds like the Catholics and Orthodox are the only ones that remember that part of Scripture.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Eden]

More about the title “Mother of God”.

It’s scriptural:

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth’s use of “Mother of my Lord” (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used “Adonai” which means Lord God) is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God” which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus’ human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

 

[montanaman]

Hey, who has that great Ignatius quote about Mary? The one without a date, but in which he discribed looking forward to seeing her…

 

[kujo313]

Magicsilence:

No one got a chance to say it. But kujo said that one of the things that proved Mary’s sinfulness was the fact she offered sacrifice. Luke 2: 22- 28

Mary was not offering a sacrifice for her sin. It was Jewish law that after birth a woman was “not clean”. Thus she had to offer sacrifice to purify herself. The mother had to be purified, the child had to be redeemed. This was not a sacrifice for sin, but to purify the mother.

Thought id clear that up.

In Christ.

Andre.

Cant be! because someone without sin should not have to be purified. She didn’t even die for us at all. Poor Lamb, He’s been “watered down”.

 

[montanaman]

Never mind–found it:

If it is made possible, I intend to come to you in order to see the faithful gathered in Jerusalem, and especially the Mother of Jesus: they say of her that she is honorable, affable, and arouses wonder in all, and all wish to see her. But who would not wish to see the Virgin and to converse with her who bore the true God? …With us she is glorified as the Mother of God and the Virgin full of grace and virtue. They say of her that she is joyful in troubles and persecutions, does not grieve in poverty and want, and not only does not get angry with those who offend her, but does good to them still more… All who see her are delighted. (St. Ignatius the God bearer)

 

[kujo313]

montanaman:

Hey, who has that great Ignatius quote about Mary? The one without a date, but in which he discribed looking forward to seeing her…

Who?? Jesus (remember Jesus? "God from God. Light from Light. True God from True God… etc) Jesus didnt exalt her, neither did Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter.

It’s one thing to quote “full of grace” but it’s another thing when Jesus didn’t make the time to see her or recognize her when He said “who’s my mother and who’s my brothers?”

What would’ve you said at that time if you was there? Would you have the gall to say “But St. Ignatius said…”

JPII was working on declaring Mary co-Mediator. Still on the desk of his successor.

What will you do then?

 

[Brian_Ingram]

kujo313:

Cant be! because someone without sin should not have to be purified. She didn’t even die for us at all. Poor Lamb, He’s been “watered down”.

It was a Jewish ordinance that all faithful Jewish women had to perform. likewise Christ did not have to get purified of sin but he underwent baptism by John

Pax

Brian

 

[montanaman]

kujo313:

Who?? Jesus (remember Jesus? "God from God. Light from Light. True God from True God… etc) Jesus didnt exalt her, neither did Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter.

It’s one thing to quote “full of grace” but it’s another thing when Jesus didn’t make the time to see her or recognize her when He said “who’s my mother and who’s my brothers?”

What would’ve you said at that time if you was there? Would you have the gall to say “But St. Ignatius said…”

JPII was working on declaring Mary co-Mediator. Still on the desk of his successor.

What will you do then?

It’s one thing to be ignorant–that’s excusable to a certain degree. But when you add condescension to it, you create angry Catholics like me whose mission is to expose ignorant bigotry like yours.

Fortunately, I don’t have to work that hard.

Time to reset and regroup, Kujo. Your standard lines of attack have been refuted thousands of times on this board alone. Time for something new.

 

[Chipper]

kujo313:

Who?? Jesus (remember Jesus? "God from God. Light from Light. True God from True God… etc) Jesus didnt exalt her, neither did Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter.

Consider this. The first miracle, the wedding at Cana. Jesus wasn’t going to do the miracle until his mother requested it. Jesus said “My hour has not yet come”. Mary asked him too, and he did it.

This means that we have God peforming something that he wasn’t going to do, until the other person requested it.This comes real close to God obeying someone else. If this isn’t an exaltation, then I don’t know what is.

Regards,
Calvin

 

[BlackKnight]

kujo313:

Cant be! because someone without sin should not have to be purified. She didn’t even die for us at all. Poor Lamb, He’s been “watered down”.

Wrong! You forget this passage.
Matthew 3:13: Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him.
14: John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15: But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” Then he consented.
16: And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him;
17: and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

No one was in less need of baptism that Christ yet he, like his mother considered it “fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” Since at that time she was still Jewish.

Her Maginificat’s rejoicing in God her savior simply points out that she knew even then that her unique status in human history was the work of God and not herself. Especially since she’s speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

One of the biggest problems that I have with n-C discussions of the Blessed Virgin is how they turn a blind eye to the total uniqueness of Mary and the implications of all that surrounds her. Next to Christ Himself she’s gotta be THE most unique soul since Adam & Eve, but n-Cs just seem to insist that they minimize all that. Fullfilled prophecies…the whole 9 yards…Sheesh! :banghead:

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Peace be wtih you!

Kujo, you didn’t really answer any of our posts. Your big problem (or at least part of it) seemed to be with the title “Mother of God”. Well, I just explained where “Mater Dei” comes from and you didn’t even address that. You offered no response to Church Militant’s post on “full of grace” either or the part of my post about “all generations shall call me blessed”. Why do you simply disregard certain parts of Scripture so that you can keep believing in your [man-made] fundamentalist doctrines?

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Mickey]

Rand Al'Thor:

Why do you simply disregard certain parts of Scripture so that you can keep believing in your [man-made] fundamentalist doctrines?

He does it intentionally to get people wound up.

 

[BlackKnight]

Rand Al'Thor:

Peace be wtih you!

Kujo, you didn’t really answer any of our posts. Your big problem (or at least part of it) seemed to be with the title “Mother of God”. Well, I just explained where “Mater Dei” comes from and you didn’t even address that. You offered no response to Church Militant’s post on “full of grace” either or the part of my post about “all generations shall call me blessed”. Why do you simply disregard certain parts of Scripture so that you can keep believing in your [man-made] fundamentalist doctrines?

In Christ,
Rand

If you have no answers in a debate then you must needs ignore the facts and raise another issue in hopes that the lack of a valid response will be missed in whatever hoopla one can cause.

 

[a_clare]

kujo313:

Cant be! because someone without sin should not have to be purified. She didn’t even die for us at all. Poor Lamb, He’s been “watered down”.

As has been said before, Catholics do not worship Mary or equate her with Jesus, and honoring Christ’s mother does not in any way “water down” Christ. Mary is not honored because she was without sin by her own efforts. The distinction is that Christ was unable to sin, because He is God, whereas Mary (who by the way carried Jesus in her womb for nine months, and must have had a special connection with Him that we cannot quite have) was prevented, by God, from sinning.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

Who?? Jesus (remember Jesus? "God from God. Light from Light. True God from True God… etc) Jesus didnt exalt her, neither did Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter.

It’s one thing to quote “full of grace” but it’s another thing when Jesus didn’t make the time to see her or recognize her when He said “who’s my mother and who’s my brothers?”

You continue to try to tell us that you have no need for Mary yet what percentage of posts here have you dedicated to her? 99.9% or so?

Firstly, you are obsessed with her.

Secondly, you are extremely disrespectful.

Remember the post in which you asked if she has a bad memory or Alzheimer’s? Do you really believe that your behavior here is pleasing to Jesus? Do you really believe He is approves of you making cheap jokes at his mother’s expense to prove your point?

No human being ever knew nor will ever know Jesus Christ the way Mary did. She gave birth to him, raised him to adulthood, and suffered greatly as a result of doing God’s will “let it be done to me according to thy word.” (Luke 1:38)

Can you imagine seeing your grown Son arrested, humiliated, scourged, crowned with thorns, bloodied and weakened yet forced to carry a cross, nailed to the cross and watching Him in agony for three hours on the cross, having no way to comfort or rescue Him?

Of course, her Son rewarded her for her suffering - for saying yes to the will of God when she went to the next life. What Son wouldn’t crown their mother “Queen” for even half of her sufferings?

If you feel that Mary does not help you to deepen your relationship with Christ in a unique way, so be it. No Catholic is forced to have a relationship with her. One could go an entire lifetime without praying a rosary or requesting her intercession and would still be living in harmony with Church teachings. But the option is there for those who feel they can use all of the prayers and “friends” they can get on their journey to Him.

If it were a simple fact that asking Mary for prayers does not appeal to you Kujo, no one would have a problem with your decision. But you have been repeatedly disrespectful to His mother. That is not acceptable to Him and it’s not acceptable to me.

In fact, I would think that the majority of Protestants would want to distance themselves from your posts (I rarely see anyone here supporting you) because, quite frankly, when you compile all of the things you said about His mother, it’s nothing short of despicable.

 

[kujo313]

Firstly, you are obsessed with her.

Jeenkies! I gotta take that reply apart and post seperatly.

It’s not that. It’s that I was asked why I wasn’t Catholic. I stressed that there is too much emphasis on other things besides Jesus.
I made one example and it got ugly.

I guess I was asked why I wasn’t Catholic just so I could be dragged into the room, scorged and beaten.

I gave my answers by looking into the Bible for answers and i got replied with quotes from people listed after the 1st century.

It’s why a few years ago people wore bracelets that said WWJD?

By using the red letters and the words and actions taken from Jesus’ disciples, I did just that.