Lay People around the Altar

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I’ve a question about a practice in our parish that troubles me. We do not have Saturday morning Mass as Saturday is our Priest’s day off (until 3:30 confessions). Lately he has been celebrating “private” Mass in the Church in which our Pastor “invites” some of his friends. At this Mass, he invites us to stand around the altar as he says the Mass. This practice also takes place once a month during Mass celebrated for the morning Men’s Prayer group where there may be 25 - 30 men standing around the altar.

I feel very uneasy about this. Is this ever allowed in a small setting?
 
You should feel uneasy about this as it is not allowed. Sadly, I have also experienced this before.

Here is one link to a similar question.

%between%
 
In 1981 the Congregation for Divine Worship addressed this question in its official journal Notitiae. In an official interpretation of no. 101 in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) it responded as follows:

Query:
At the presentation of gifts at a Mass with congregation, persons (lay or religious) bring to the altar the bread and wine which are to be consecrated. These gifts are received by the priest celebrant. All those participating in the Mass accompany this group procession in which the gifts are brought forward. They then stand around the altar until communion time. Is this procedure in conformity with the spirit of the law and of the Roman Missal?

Reply:
Assuredly, the Eucharistic celebration is the act of the entire community, carried out by all the members of the liturgical assembly. Nevertheless, everyone must have and also must observe his or her own place and proper role: “In liturgical celebrations each one, minister or layperson, who has an office to perform, should do all of, but only, those parts which pertain to that office by the nature of the rite and the principles of liturgy.” (SC art. 29). During the liturgy of the eucharist, only the presiding celebrant remains at the altar. The assembly of the faithful take their place in the Church outside the “presbyterium,” which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and altar ministers. [Notitiae 17 (1981) 61]
 
Catholic in NH:
I’ve a question about a practice in our parish that troubles me. We do not have Saturday morning Mass as Saturday is our Priest’s day off (until 3:30 confessions). Lately he has been celebrating “private” Mass in the Church in which our Pastor “invites” some of his friends. At this Mass, he invites us to stand around the altar as he says the Mass. This practice also takes place once a month during Mass celebrated for the morning Men’s Prayer group where there may be 25 - 30 men standing around the altar.

I feel very uneasy about this. Is this ever allowed in a small setting?
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Technically I believe that any Mass that is said is a public Mass and anyone may attend if they wish. No one is to be in the sanctuary during the celebration of Mass that does not have a specific function to do.
 
It was probably an abuse in retrospect, but I do remember that in college many years ago (at a secular university where it was with the blessing of the bishop celebrated in a side chapel of a magnicent grand university chapel) I attended daily Mass three days out of five anyway. It was entirely a low Mass (in those days they hadn’t devised the false scheme that music is really not needed at every single Mass). There might have been 12-15 people there each day, many repeats of course. We were always invited to come around the “altar” (well, as you know in multisectarian chapels there are always dispensations for this, so it was not a true sanctuary in the first place) at a certain point, after the “offertory” if I remember correctly. Another abuse was that this Catholic chaplaincy at a famous university had everybody recite together the “Per ipsum.” The Prayer of the Faithful was made up by the congregants as we went along, which I consider a Protestant thing and an abuse (in fact I question the whole concept of an ad hoc Prayer of the Faithful). Communion was given in the hand (as in all college chaplaincies at the time) even though it had never been officially approved.

In spite of all this and more, these were some of the most spiritual Masses I have ever attended, deeply moving to me at the time. I know of nothing that made them invalid and unless you allow relatively minor deviations from the rubrics to make a Mass illicit, not that either. I would have felt quite weird if this had been a Traditional Latin Mass; there were in the first placed no kneelers, and I could go on and on. In fact, once the chaplain was talked into saying a Latin Mass (Novus Ordo, not Traditiona), which he was fully qualified to do, and he ran through the Latin so quickly and with such bad pronunciation, as almost all American priests did prior to Vatican II, that I could only think that it had been a waste of time, though I would also not call it an invalid Mass.

That was a very contextual setting, at a time when the Novus Ordo was still only a few years old, things were still slightly experimental, and many prohibitions which have been re-instated but are still widely ignored were not even in the ken of young worshippers like myself. I still would not want to walk into the side chapel of _____________ University and kneel to “Introibo ad Altare Dei” and stand for the Last Gospel, but I would understand it if they had restored an appropriate measure of tradition, which I can be almost sure they have not. I have come to realize that they threw out the baby with the bathwater.
 
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Tedster:
In 1981 the Congregation for Divine Worship addressed this question in its official journal Notitiae. In an official interpretation of no. 101 in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) it responded as follows:

Query:
At the presentation of gifts at a Mass with congregation, persons (lay or religious) bring to the altar the bread and wine which are to be consecrated. These gifts are received by the priest celebrant. All those participating in the Mass accompany this group procession in which the gifts are brought forward. They then stand around the altar until communion time. Is this procedure in conformity with the spirit of the law and of the Roman Missal?

Reply:
Assuredly, the Eucharistic celebration is the act of the entire community, carried out by all the members of the liturgical assembly. Nevertheless, everyone must have and also must observe his or her own place and proper role: “In liturgical celebrations each one, minister or layperson, who has an office to perform, should do all of, but only, those parts which pertain to that office by the nature of the rite and the principles of liturgy.” (SC art. 29). During the liturgy of the eucharist, only the presiding celebrant remains at the altar. The assembly of the faithful take their place in the Church outside the “presbyterium,” which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and altar ministers. [Notitiae 17 (1981) 61]
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Does this include altar boys and girls, and lecturer since I have always noticed that they stay around the altar.

Kendy
 
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Kendy:
Does this include altar boys and girls, and lecturer since I have always noticed that they stay around the altar.

Kendy
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No one is to be in the sanctuary (around the altar, behind the altar rail or where the altar rail should be) except the priest, concelebrants, deacons(s), and Servers. Lectors, Readers, EMHC’s, others are not to be there.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
No one is to be in the sanctuary (around the altar, behind the altar rail or where the altar rail should be) except the priest, concelebrants, deacons(s), and Servers. Lectors, Readers, EMHC’s, others are not to be there.
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Well, the EMHC’s at my parish always receive communion behind the altar table and then they come down and give to everyone. And the ushers go up there all the time, especially to bring the collection plate to the altar.

Kendy

P.S. I never cease to be amazed by the things people fret over on this forum 😃 .
 
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Kendy:
Well, the EMHC’s at my parish always receive communion behind the altar table and then they come down and give to everyone. And the ushers go up there all the time, especially to bring the collection plate to the altar.

Kendy

P.S. I never cease to be amazed by the things people fret over on this forum 😃 .
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EMHC’s enter the sanctuary only after the priest receives Holy Communion (GIRM) Because they do have a function at that time. An usher should not. They should be met at the entrence to the sanctuary by the priest, deacon or server to accept the gifts.
 
The EMs go up and stand on the sides of the alter, during the Angus Dei…half line up on the right, the other half on the left at my parish. The lector is standing off to the side as well, just behind the pulpit(I am a convert, so don’t know if pulpit is the right term). So this is wrong? Are y’all saying noone behind where the rails would be, if they were still there?
 
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PassthePeace1:
The EMs go up and stand on the sides of the alter, during the Angus Dei…half line up on the right, the other half on the left at my parish. The lector is standing off to the side as well, just behind the pulpit(I am a convert, so don’t know if pulpit is the right term). So this is wrong? Are y’all saying noone behind where the rails would be, if they were still there?
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Yes both are incorrect. We discussed this last year. A real instituted Lector has a place in the sancturay but not an Extraordinary Reader. A lay person who comes out of the community to read the first or second readings and then should return to their pew. The GIRM states that EMHC do not enter the sancrtuary until after the priest and concelebrants receive Holy Communion.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
Yes both are incorrect. We discussed this last year. A real instituted Lector has a place in the sancturay but not an Extraordinary Reader. A lay person who comes out of the community to read the first or second readings and then should return to their pew. The GIRM states that EMHC do not enter the sancrtuary until after the priest and concelebrants receive Holy Communion.
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Thank you! I have never seen a first reader return to their seat, after the reading.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
Yes both are incorrect. We discussed this last year. A real instituted Lector has a place in the sancturay but not an Extraordinary Reader. A lay person who comes out of the community to read the first or second readings and then should return to their pew. The GIRM states that EMHC do not enter the sancrtuary until after the priest and concelebrants receive Holy Communion.
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I only converted a couple of years ago, so am not fimilar with all of the terms…“A real instituted Lector” would be…?

This is going to be interesting…lol…my husband just became a lector, so far he has only done one second reading. I just told him want you said and he said they never told him anything about that…go figure. Guess he is just going to have to stay second reader.
 
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PassthePeace1:
I only converted a couple of years ago, so am not fimilar with all of the terms…“A real instituted Lector” would be…?

This is going to be interesting…lol…my husband just became a lector, so far he has only done one second reading. I just told him want you said and he said they never told him anything about that…go figure. Guess he is just going to have to stay second reader.
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An Instituted Lector is a male who has been in formation for that ministry and installed in the office by the Bishop. A Lay reader is someone who volunteers to read the first or second readings a Mass when necessary. They are extraordinary in other words they are not “Installed” into the Ministry they are usually “Commissioned” for a period of time.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
No one is to be in the sanctuary (around the altar, behind the altar rail or where the altar rail should be) except the priest, concelebrants, deacons(s), and Servers. Lectors, Readers, EMHC’s, others are not to be there.
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The liturgical books are not as specific as this. According to the 2002 GIRM n. 295: “The sanctuary is the place where the altar stands where the word of God is proclaimed, and where the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers exercise their offices.”

According to 2002 GIRM n. 294: “The faithful and the choir should have a place that facilitates their active participation.”

The priest celebrant, the deacon, and the other ministers have places in the sanctuary."

According to 2002 GIRM 195, after the entrance procession: “Then the lector takes his own place in the sanctuary with the other ministers.”

If “lector” were intended to mean “only an instituted lector” it would say so. It would be like the instruction on only an instituted acolyte is to do the purifications in n. 192: “Likewise, when the distribution of Communion is completed, a duly instituted acolyte helps the priest or deacon to purify and arrange the sacred vessels.”

The “other ministers” could mean altar servers. But it is also reasonable to interpret this as meaning Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, the psalmist, lectors, cantor and commentator.
 
Good News!!! And thank you to all who discussed this topic. Yesterday during a casual conversation with our Pastor, he made the statement that he wishes to be a good priest and loyal to the Magisterium. I took the opportunity to discuss the standing around the altar with him in a very kind, loving way. He started by saying, "it’s a private Mass, small setting, etc. etc. I kindly interrupted him and said I only know what the GIRM says. After a few moments of silence, he said “You’re right. If I’m going to teach truth I have to be consistent.”

Just thought I’d share some good news!! 👍
 
Catholic in NH:
Good News!!! And thank you to all who discussed this topic. Yesterday during a casual conversation with our Pastor, he made the statement that he wishes to be a good priest and loyal to the Magisterium. I took the opportunity to discuss the standing around the altar with him in a very kind, loving way. He started by saying, "it’s a private Mass, small setting, etc. etc. I kindly interrupted him and said I only know what the GIRM says. After a few moments of silence, he said “You’re right. If I’m going to teach truth I have to be consistent.”

Just thought I’d share some good news!! 👍
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Lucky dog! I was just told by my priest via email…that “GIRM is there to help pastorally. It is not a “do or die” directive. At the same time, one does not change in a Parish without due discretion and without considering the usefulness to the parish: in other words will this help the parishioners? When that question is answered then that is the direction we can go.”. This was his response to an email I sent him about having mutilple readers during the gospel, last Sunday, and the type of music we sing during Mass.

I really having got a clue on what to do from here…except pray.
 
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PassthePeace1:
I really having got a clue on what to do from here…except pray.
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Your next step is to take both your initial correspondance and his reply and send that with a cover letter to the office of your local Bishop. Make sure the letter is very respective of the office of the Bishop and is not accusing anyone of anything subversive or any ill will. It is a good idea to find a priest that may be on your side to proof read it and make suggestions.

Big mistakes people tend to make when sending things to the Bishop are:
a) not approaching the person you originally had the problem with first. If you don’t approach the pastor first it will just get returned to you.
b) writing scathing letters accusing people of everything under the sun. Remember that most priests are doing the liturgical abuse, not because they are trying to be abusive but because they feel that so and so abuse is better for some reason.
c) not getting to the point. The longer it takes to get to the point the less they want to read it.
 
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Marauder:
Your next step is to take both your initial correspondance and his reply and send that with a cover letter to the office of your local Bishop. Make sure the letter is very respective of the office of the Bishop and is not accusing anyone of anything subversive or any ill will. It is a good idea to find a priest that may be on your side to proof read it and make suggestions.

Big mistakes people tend to make when sending things to the Bishop are:
a) not approaching the person you originally had the problem with first. If you don’t approach the pastor first it will just get returned to you.
b) writing scathing letters accusing people of everything under the sun. Remember that most priests are doing the liturgical abuse, not because they are trying to be abusive but because they feel that so and so abuse is better for some reason.
c) not getting to the point. The longer it takes to get to the point the less they want to read it.
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Thanks for the tips! I am going to spend sometime in prayer also…as of yet, I have no ideal of what priest around here might be on my side…sigh…if I did I would be going to that parish.😉

Peace be with you…Pam
 
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PassthePeace1:
Thanks for the tips! I am going to spend sometime in prayer also…as of yet, I have no ideal of what priest around here might be on my side…sigh…if I did I would be going to that parish.😉

Peace be with you…Pam
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Prayer is a good thing. Sorry to hear you don’t know of any priests that would be on your side there. Luckily when I had issues like this with my previous pastor, our church is large enough to have 3 active priests and one retired priest in residence. Luckily 2 of the priests assigned to the parish did not like the liberties the pastor was taking with the Mass so they were more then willing to assist anyone that was writting to the Cardinal. Luckily for us, that pastor was moved to another smaller parish and his replacement was much more orthodox.
 
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