Lehi the prophet, was he faithless? Can Mormons save him?

[twopekinguys]

Yeah I looked up the inflamatory statement about Joseph Smith boasting.
Then I remembered that Ive done this stuff before where I chase down every arguement put before me.
In a short answer, im not going to do this because I dont enjoy it like I did before.
There is an answer for your accusations but I remember that those who dont want an answer that nullifies their complaint wiill not hear what they dont want to hear and they will not find the answer themselves and I am not going to do the work for you.

I have seen too many lies against Joseph Smith over turned.
I also know that rhetoric is not debate and that you dont really want debate, you want hit and run with no return for discussion.

I haggled with one antimormon guy for years not realizing that it was all a waste of time.

No thank you. Say what ever you want to say. I quit listening to talk radio rhetoric for the same reason. It makes me sick.Rhetoric, spin, purposeful misrepresentation
Cheapshots, negativity and fear. I’d listen to Hannity if I wanted any of that.

So, what you’re saying is, you want to set the boundries for the discussion/debate.

I’ll help you out a bit. It ain’t gonna happen.

Keep in mind, that this is not the place to simply bear your testimony or opinion, and not expect a rebuttal. It is a place for frank and open discussion/debate from both sides.

Please show where there has been any “purposeful misrepresentation”, “spin”, or “rhetoric”, “cheapshots”, or “fear”. It shouldn’t be hard to do since you made the accusation.

As far as you “haggling” with what you determined to be an “anti-mormon”, and realizing that it was a “waste of time”, was that because he didn’t blindly believe everything you said? Was it because he used logical thought processes to debunk what you were saying? In simpler terms, was it a “waste of time” because you couldn’t convert him?

 

[TexanKnight]

Yeah I looked up the inflamatory statement about Joseph Smith boasting.
Then I remembered that Ive done this stuff before where I chase down every arguement put before me.

So you say. Yet here, you have not been able to refute anyone.

In a short answer, im not going to do this because I dont enjoy it like I did before.

And because you know you have no responses to our truths

I have seen too many lies against Joseph Smith over turned.

So, since you have been unable to overturn anything said here, it must be all we have stated is the truth

I also know that rhetoric is not debate and that you dont really want debate, you want hit and run with no return for discussion.

It is debate until you realize you are defeated, then it is rhetoric

No thank you. Say what ever you want to say. I quit listening to talk radio rhetoric for the same reason. It makes me sick.Rhetoric, spin, purposeful misrepresentation
Cheapshots, negativity and fear. I’d listen to Hannity if I wanted any of that.

Translation: I can;t defend my “church” because I know what you guys say is true

 

[zaffiroborant]

Here is some tangible evidence. Some how, this thing called “chiasmus” ended up all over the Book of Mormon like it is in the Bible. Alma 36 has a big one. If Smith was so talented as to put hidden messages in his work, maybe he could have made a better safer living writing scifi novels. Or he was telling the truth.

Just like this thing called Isaiah ended up in the BoM, JS learned a way of writing from reading the bible. And a chiasmus is not a hidden message it’s a literary device of figure of speech like epistrophe.

 

[Tarquin]

I believe that the reformers had common sense and brains enough to see that the church had fallen apostate.

Plus, enough common sense to remove books (from the Bible) that disagreed with their innovations, let’s not forget!

I believe that Joseph smith did what needed to be done in the right way.

This is a natural belief. It should not be uncommon for most anyone following a particular religion to believe the founder of their religion “did what needed to be done” and did it “in the right way.” Thus, Christians do not fault Jesus; Muslims see no faults in Muhammad. Mormons are quite accepting of Joseph Smith.

Joseph smith could have started a church without the Book of Mormon.

Many have. Some still do.

 

[Tarquin]

Yeah I looked up the inflamatory statement about Joseph Smith boasting.

When you get more experience, as you will, you will not see as inflammatory those that you see as inflammatory today. Many people boast. With ancient Greeks, it was a necessity. Boasting isn’t bad. What bothers some people is that it puts what the boaster is saying in bold and underlined; some people don’t like that. The problem – speaking just for myself, not for any church or religion or age – is not the boasting, but what the boasting consists of. To say, Wow, I finally wrote out that entire translation!, or Wow, I’ve done a lot of good for people today!, or Wow, I donated a lot of money to charity, taught the first lesson to ten contacts, and prayed for an hour!, that’s okay. I might “boast” of those things, too, and probably should not be condemned for my youthful exuberance. If, however, I said I was better than Jesus, or did more than Jesus, then there is a real possibility that my boasting has crossed the lines of both good taste and common sense. Would you agree with this?

There is an answer for your accusations but I remember that those who dont want an answer that nullifies their complaint wiill not hear what they dont want to hear and they will not find the answer themselves and I am not going to do the work for you.

I think you may be correct: most everyone, maybe absolutely everyone, including Mormons, “will not hear what they don’t want to hear” and aren’t willing to really look at the sources for answers. Some such people, we have to just let them evolve spiritually at their own rate. But there are others who are impressed, little by little, even though they don’t show it outwardly. That’s why I don’t give up with some people - I have faith. Do you believe Mormons are not subject to this aspect of human nature - not hearing what they don’t want to hear, not going to the sources?

I have seen too many lies against Joseph Smith over turned.
I also know that rhetoric is not debate and that you dont really want debate, you want hit and run with no return for discussion.

All lies should be overturned. The Bible says we are to contend for what is right, and the Doctrine and Covenants exhorts Mormons to “confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful, their shame shall be made manifest.” (71:7). I suspect that some Mormons misinterpret this as meaning, they lost the argument with the Mormons and that is what is shameful. But I think it means the shame of their error (if there is any) will be so evident to them, that they will confess their error. Like Zeezrom.
You will also find hit-and-run tactics all over the internet. I assure you, Mormons are no more innocent of this than anyone else. Normally, the hit-and-run poster is one who is posting about his own religion’s beliefs in a forum dedicated either to another religion or to criticism of his own religion, or a non-believer posting in a forum for believers (of any given religion). Haven’t you known some Mormons who have posted in a non-Mormon forum, and left more or less abruptly, without even half-way answering posts directed to him, when the going got tough? Unlike Abinadi and Alma, to say nothing of Stephen, Paul, and Polycarp.