Let's get hypothetical o.O

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So here is a question, since cannon laws govern what can/cannot be done. Let’s say there was something akin to the events of The Walking Dead. Giving years, even decades of a band of people living without any clergy. Could someone step up and perform valid sacraments without any ordination? Even give communion with in this case very imperfect supplies? I know that there are “emergency” provisions for certain things like baptism etc… but some not so much. So if for whatever reason such an apocalyptic event occured that whole poppulations would live without access to clergy/proper things… could an impromptu “clergy” be viewed as valid in essence by the church?
 
In a word, nope!

There can be no valid sacraments without the laying on of hands…

ICXC NIKA
 
So here is a question, since cannon laws govern what can/cannot be done. Let’s say there was something akin to the events of The Walking Dead. Giving years, even decades of a band of people living without any clergy. Could someone step up and perform valid sacraments without any ordination? Even give communion with in this case very imperfect supplies? I know that there are “emergency” provisions for certain things like baptism etc… but some not so much. So if for whatever reason such an apocalyptic event occured that whole poppulations would live without access to clergy/proper things… could an impromptu “clergy” be viewed as valid in essence by the church?
It’s hard to engage in this sort of hypothetical, because such a thing is literally impossible. Christ promised that the church would not fall, but the scenario in your hypothetical requires that the Church has fallen…

With that out of the way, I’ll give it a shot. There are two potential realities at play here:

#1: The apocalyptic event is not all encompassing. Various Bishops throughout the world survive and go on to continue the faith. In this case, it is possible to re-institute valid Holy Orders, and the line back to the apostles is retained.

#2: The apocalyptic event wipes out ever last clergyman on earth. In this even, it would not be possible for the priesthood to be re-instituted naturally. Jesus Christ would have to return to Earth and ordain a new generation of priests like he did with the Apostles.
 
Nope.

First off, your “theoretical” situation has been experienced by the Church many times, in many countries! Every really nasty government kills off the priests and bishops, first thing. The Vatican and neighboring Catholic bishops try to send in help, but it doesn’t always work and there are always many people left without most of the Sacraments for years, or even centuries.

So what do you do without bishops or priests?
  1. Even non-Christians can baptize validly. You might not get all the goodies and anointings and exorcisms, but you’ll be a Catholic.
  2. In the absence of a priest for over six months, a Catholic man and woman can validly marry each other sacramentally before two witnesses.
  3. In the absence of a priest, Catholics can still lean on Jesus’ promise that prayers prayed together will be granted, and that if two or more are gathered together, He will be in their midst. That doesn’t mean you have Communion or a Mass, but it does mean that you can serve God faithfully as Catholics and be nourished spiritually in His own way.
  4. If you have the Bible, you keep copying it and passing it on. If people know prayers, they keep passing them on. Catechists usually become the leaders of Catholic communities under these conditions.
The biggest success story among priestless Catholics were the incredibly faithful Korean Catholics. They first encountered Christianity on visits to China, loved it, and brought back as many Chinese Catholic books as they could, evangelized other Koreans entirely as laypeople, and finally were able to send some Korean men to become priests. The kings of Korea freaked out and killed every Catholic they could find who didn’t apostatize, including all the priests. But some of the books survived and were found by the next generation, and again the Koreans self-evangelized and then sent their guys out to become priests!

Japanese Catholics went over 200 years without priests, with some of the underground communities remaining pretty knowledgeable about the Faith (like in Nagasaki) and others becoming pretty ignorant. As soon as Catholic priests first arrived in Japan in the 1800’s, these “hidden Christians” made contact without caring that the deadly persecution laws were still in effect. Some community members ultimately decided to maintain a schism, but most of them rejoined the main fold very happily.

During Communist rule of Eastern Europe, there were several countries left without bishops or with bishops that were inaccessible. A few priests did take it on themselves to “ordain” people (even though they didn’t actually have that power), including some women. (Or so rumor has it.) Once Communism fell, people were pretty torqued off when they found out they’d been risking their lives to receive invalid sacraments from people who really weren’t priests. (Although my understanding is that a lot of people had realized that there was absolutely no way these women were priests, and there is some speculation that the guy who did it was actually working for the Communists to create dissension and uncertainty among Catholics. Although he could have just been an idiot.) So you have to “redo” thousands of Sacraments that people never received, and trust that the poor saps who already died will not be suffering for having their real Sacraments replaced by fake ones. Nobody wants a repeat of this scenario; it is a Very Bad Idea.

So the basic principle is that if you want new priests, you need at least one real bishop. If you want new bishops, you usually need three bishops; but there is an emergency format that just has one real bishop doing it. Without this apostolic handing-on of the power given by Jesus, you can’t have valid priests or bishops.

(There has been such a thing as towns electing bishops; but that was just the choice of guy. The towns didn’t lay hands on their bishops and give them the heavenly power of binding and loosing. They always had to find some bishops from other towns to lay hands on their chosen candidate, and thus pass along the apostolic powers. And nobody but a bishop, or an abbot who’s also a bishop, can ordain priests; they derive all their powers from bishops. Heck, Catholic priests only exist because bishops can’t be everywhere; the original format was for everybody to go to Mass with the bishop.)

So you try to get real priests and bishops. If you can’t get them, you sit tight and keep the faith. Not easy, but it’s what you do.
 
It’s hard to engage in this sort of hypothetical, because such a thing is literally impossible. Christ promised that the church would not fall, but the scenario in your hypothetical requires that the Church has fallen…

With that out of the way, I’ll give it a shot. There are two potential realities at play here:

#1: The apocalyptic event is not all encompassing. Various Bishops throughout the world survive and go on to continue the faith. In this case, it is possible to re-institute valid Holy Orders, and the line back to the apostles is retained.

#2: The apocalyptic event wipes out ever last clergyman on earth. In this even, it would not be possible for the priesthood to be re-instituted naturally. Jesus Christ would have to return to Earth and ordain a new generation of priests like he did with the Apostles.
For these purposes there are clergy somewhere… but let’s say for example the Vatican is still fine, and a Bishop is doing great in South America… but it would be 2 generations without contact to these people say idk 60 years by a poppulation in middle America.

But in thinking about it, I guess just Baptism, Marriages, and Liturgy of the hours. With some layministering of the faith to the people? Guess that could be done 🙂
 
Nope.

First off, your “theoretical” situation has been experienced by the Church many times, in many countries! Every really nasty government kills off the priests and bishops, first thing. The Vatican and neighboring Catholic bishops try to send in help, but it doesn’t always work and there are always many people left without most of the Sacraments for years, or even centuries.

So what do you do without bishops or priests?
  1. Even non-Christians can baptize validly. You might not get all the goodies and anointings and exorcisms, but you’ll be a Catholic.
  2. In the absence of a priest for over six months, a Catholic man and woman can validly marry each other sacramentally before two witnesses.
  3. In the absence of a priest, Catholics can still lean on Jesus’ promise that prayers prayed together will be granted, and that if two or more are gathered together, He will be in their midst. That doesn’t mean you have Communion or a Mass, but it does mean that you can serve God faithfully as Catholics and be nourished spiritually in His own way.
  4. If you have the Bible, you keep copying it and passing it on. If people know prayers, they keep passing them on. Catechists usually become the leaders of Catholic communities under these conditions.
The biggest success story among priestless Catholics were the incredibly faithful Korean Catholics. They first encountered Christianity on visits to China, loved it, and brought back as many Chinese Catholic books as they could, evangelized other Koreans entirely as laypeople, and finally were able to send some Korean men to become priests. The kings of Korea freaked out and killed every Catholic they could find who didn’t apostatize, including all the priests. But some of the books survived and were found by the next generation, and again the Koreans self-evangelized and then sent their guys out to become priests!

Japanese Catholics went over 200 years without priests, with some of the underground communities remaining pretty knowledgeable about the Faith (like in Nagasaki) and others becoming pretty ignorant. As soon as Catholic priests first arrived in Japan in the 1800’s, these “hidden Christians” made contact without caring that the deadly persecution laws were still in effect. Some community members ultimately decided to maintain a schism, but most of them rejoined the main fold very happily.

During Communist rule of Eastern Europe, there were several countries left without bishops or with bishops that were inaccessible. A few priests did take it on themselves to “ordain” people (even though they didn’t actually have that power), including some women. (Or so rumor has it.) Once Communism fell, people were pretty torqued off when they found out they’d been risking their lives to receive invalid sacraments from people who really weren’t priests. (Although my understanding is that a lot of people had realized that there was absolutely no way these women were priests, and there is some speculation that the guy who did it was actually working for the Communists to create dissension and uncertainty among Catholics. Although he could have just been an idiot.) So you have to “redo” thousands of Sacraments that people never received, and trust that the poor saps who already died will not be suffering for having their real Sacraments replaced by fake ones.

So the basic principle is that if you want new priests, you need at least one real bishop. If you want new bishops, you usually need three bishops; but there is an emergency format that just has one real bishop doing it. Without this apostolic handing-on of the power given by Jesus, you can’t have valid priests or bishops.

(There has been such a thing as towns electing bishops; but that was just the choice of guy. The towns didn’t lay hands on their bishops and give them the heavenly power of binding and loosing. They always had to find some bishops from other towns to lay hands on their chosen candidate, and thus pass along the apostolic powers. And nobody but a bishop, or an abbot who’s also a bishop, can ordain priests; they derive all their powers from bishops. Heck, Catholic priests only exist because bishops can’t be everywhere; the original format was for everybody to go to Mass with the bishop.)
You sir, you! You know your stuff. You have answered my question and given examples I didn’t know the extremes of which have happened 🙂 🙂 awesomeness.
 
You’re welcome!

Church history is a very useful subject. The worst has already happened somewhere, so you just look it up.

Forgot to mention:

Catholicism was illegal in England and Ireland for something like 300 years. Various Catholic men would sneak off to the Continent (usually France, Germany, Flanders, or Italy) and become priests, and then they would sneak back. Some guys got caught right away, while others kept it up for twenty or thirty years. In Ireland, you even got occasional bishops sneaking back in. (And if you have a bishop, then you can have secret seminaries, like St. John Paul II attended in Poland during Nazi and Communist rule.)

Priests would travel around on an irregular schedule, avoiding the priesthunters. Communities would gather for Masses in secret places. In England and Wales, these were usually attics or basements with secret facilities for Mass. In Ireland, they were usually open fields in inaccessible places, often featuring convenient stone formations (“Mass stones”) where priests could set up their portable altars, and where lookouts could see enemies coming from far off. Nuns whose orders had been abolished often ran open grammar schools for the kids in England; in Ireland, where all education was forbidden to Catholics, laypeople ran secret “hedge schools” to teach kids their math, letters, religion, and even Latin and Greek. Most people rarely saw a priest, but that didn’t mean they couldn’t say their Rosary (in Latin!), recite the Psalms, and understand their own beliefs.

Now, I will say that sometimes the Faith does just die out. Obviously this happened in a lot of places in the Middle East, where either all the Christians got killed, or all the surviving Christians lost faith and decided to become Muslims. The same thing is true for North Africa, which used to be intensely Catholic during Roman times. Like Father Z says, the promise about the gates of hell not prevailing is something said in general, not something promised to specific times and places. If we want the Gospel, we have to spread the Gospel.

But then again, it’s amazing how many Mideastern people have stayed faithful for century upon century, despite martyrdom, punitive taxes, and the removal of all their rights. The same thing is true in India, where a lot of faithful Christians put up with being treated badly for a couple thousand years, and stayed Christian in pagan or Muslim areas. But it is definitely easier to stay faithful if you have priests and bishops to maintain the Sacraments and provide continuity.
 
Well, there were Church laws about crossbow use… but I dunno about cannons. 🙂
 
Don’t be silly!

He was obviously talking about laws that regulate cannon use!
It’s the cannon balls that worry me…all that satin and lace on those gowns…such a waste of liturgical fabric. 😊
 
I’ve often wondered what I should do in the case of a zombie outbreak or massive plague! Or even getting stranded on another planet!

Now I know. We should write a book! We can call it The Catholic Handbook for the Zombie Apocalypse!
 
I’ve often wondered what I should do in the case of a zombie outbreak or massive plague! Or even getting stranded on another planet!

Now I know. We should write a book! We can call it The Catholic Handbook for the Zombie Apocalypse!
Yes! I actually had the thought bc I am possibly going to put a family cemetery on my land and thought to build a small chapel for it.

When in fun thinking of TWD I wondered if my little area became a safe zone and we had the chapel… what could be done with it 🙂

I like your handbook idea lol, it would be a great addition to the fun end of the world talks!
 
So basically how it will happen:

After the CC is outlawed and all killed/quelled there will be 2 last Bishops. Bishop Kober will live in hiding in the desert of the middle east, and Bishop Yodel in the jungles of South America. Bishop Kober will meet a young Luke Smith but die before ordaining him. Coming back all saintly and stuff Bishop Kober will send young Smith on a journey to find Bishop Yodel who will in turn train and ordain Smith. After kickstarting the Catholic Church Bishop Smith’s nefew Kyle will turn to Satan and kill the Bishops except Smith. Years later a future Nun Rachel will track down Bishop Smith to present him with his lost Rosary and give it to him as he is in hiding at the lost city of the Vatican.
 
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