Life and death - sacraments

[opusAquinas]

What if you were dying and there was a priest but he refused to hear your confession could you threaten him with a gun to hear your confession and would it be valid?

Can you do the same with demanding the Eucharist?

Or exorcism?

If the sacrament or sacramental is valid doesn’t that mean God is ok if you force the priest to give what should be freely given? Especially say if you were a prophet from God!? Like you were the prophet Jeremiah baptized in their mother’s womb you can demand sacraments and sacramentals particularly from priests who are being evil?

You can admonish sinners. Of course. Admonish is the key word.

 

[davidv]

What if you were dying and there was a priest but he refused to hear your confession could you threaten him with a gun to hear your confession and would it be valid?

Can you do the same with demanding the Eucharist?

Or exorcism?

If the sacrament or sacramental is valid doesn’t that mean God is ok if you force the priest to give what should be freely given? Especially say if you were a prophet from God!? Like you were the prophet Jeremiah baptized in their mother’s womb you can demand sacraments and sacramentals particularly from priests who are being evil?

You can admonish sinners. Of course. Admonish is the key word.

Threats are contrary to the dignity of the human person.

Why is force equivalent to admonishment?

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Interesting question. Is a sacrament valid when it is not given by free will? I would think not.

My best simple Catholic understanding of the word admonish is “to encourage”.But the process of admonishment is more complex. It involves self examination, confession, patience and love.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

What if you were dying and there was a priest but he refused to hear your confession could you threaten him with a gun to hear your confession and would it be valid?

I’m not a priest… but common sense says:

You cannot demand God’s forgiveness at gunpoint. In order for a confession to be valid there must be true contrition of heart and a desire to repent and sin no more. If you are holding a priest at gunpoint and threatening to kill him if he doesn’t do YOUR will, you are in fact sinning during the act. The idea is to bend you will to God’s will. By holding a gun to another man and threatening to kill him you are imposing your own selfish will and desires, not those of Our Lord. Where is your love of neighbor? Where is your love of God?

Perhaps there is a reason the priest is unwilling to grant absolution. For a moment let us assume that the priest is simply a wicked person and is refusing to grant absolution because of his own selfish desires. Pulling a gun and demanding absolution is still not the answer. Turn to prayer instead. God will answer.

Can you do the same with demanding the Eucharist?
Or exorcism?

Demanding the Eucharist at gunpoint would be like trying to hold Jesus Christ hostage with a gun. Not only that, but taking the Eucharist with sin on your soul is sacrilege. You would be eating and drinking your own judgement. I dont recommend it.

As far as exorcism, there may be many reasons a priest would refuse to perform an exorcism. The most obvious would be that he doesnt believe the person is possessed, or perhaps is waiting for medical test results. Priests only perform exorcisms with the permission of the Bishop. Instead of pulling a gun you would be better off talking to the Bishop.

If the sacrament or sacramental is valid doesn’t that mean God is ok if you force the priest to give what should be freely given? Especially say if you were a prophet from God!?

Again, a sacrament given because a gun is to the priest’s head is, by its very nature, invalid. And I doubt very much if a prophet from God would ever put a gun to someone elses head in order to make demands, especially trying to force God’s grace.

 

[opusAquinas]

You can admonish sinners and that’s the way Our Lord wants us to treat each other but then sometimes you might be in a situation where you must be like Jacob and break the ten commandment of honoring your mother and father in order to get the blessing.

You see how people behave and how they ought to but how people must act do get a good.

The philosophical question is one of intent.

It’s funny how everybody has to say the nice thing but its like no one says how things really go.

 

[opusAquinas]

I’m not a priest… but common sense says:

You cannot demand God’s forgiveness at gunpoint. In order for a confession to be valid there must be true contrition of heart and a desire to repent and sin no more. If you are holding a priest at gunpoint and threatening to kill him if he doesn’t do YOUR will, you are in fact sinning during the act. The idea is to bend you will to God’s will. By holding a gun to another man and threatening to kill him you are imposing your own selfish will and desires, not those of Our Lord. Where is your love of neighbor? Where is your love of God?

Perhaps there is a reason the priest is unwilling to grant absolution. For a moment let us assume that the priest is simply a wicked person and is refusing to grant absolution because of his own selfish desires. Pulling a gun and demanding absolution is still not the answer. Turn to prayer instead. God will answer.

Demanding the Eucharist at gunpoint would be like trying to hold Jesus Christ hostage with a gun. Not only that, but taking the Eucharist with sin on your soul is sacrilege. You would be eating and drinking your own judgement. I dont recommend it.

As far as exorcism, there may be many reasons a priest would refuse to perform an exorcism. The most obvious would be that he doesnt believe the person is possessed, or perhaps is waiting for medical test results. Priests only perform exorcisms with the permission of the Bishop. Instead of pulling a gun you would be better off talking to the Bishop.

Again, a sacrament given because a gun is to the priest’s head is, by its very nature, invalid. And I doubt very much if a prophet from God would ever put a gun to someone elses head in order to make demands, especially trying to force God’s grace.

If you feel love for God then you have perfect contrition. If you truly feel love because you received mystical baptism I think that’s what happen to Jeremiah - rarely does anyone feel love for God. John the Baptist felt love for God. But you don’t need to feel it you just have to will it- but WHAT A BLESSING FROM GOD TO FEEL LOVE FOR GOD!

Most people suffer from feel hatred for each other and hating themselves it seems and for God. But people can’t help how they feel.

So you have to demand goodness - kindness from sinners because of their hatred selfishness and self-centeredness they will not freely give it.

 

[Bookcat]

No.

For one - you would not be repenting of the mortal sin your committing…

 

[1Lord1Faith]

So you have to demand goodness - kindness from sinners because of their hatred selfishness and self-centeredness they will not freely give it.

Thesselonians 5
14
We urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, cheer the fainthearted, support the weak, be patient with all.
15
See that no one returns evil for evil; rather, always seek what is good [both] for each other and for all.g

St. Paul is saying be patient with all who need admonishment. Not demanding.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

If you feel love for God then you have perfect contrition.

It is defined explicitly by the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, ch. iv de Contritione): “a sorrow of soul and a hatred of sin committed, with a firm purpose of not sinning in the future”.

Love of God is a glorious thing, but one can love God and still fall into sin. Even Peter, who loved Jesus, denied him three times. Afterward he was truly contrite and asked our Risen Lord for forgiveness. Love of God and contriteness of heart go hand in hand, but they are not precisely the same thing.

Again, you cannot demand forgiveness at gunpoint. You cannot buy heaven, nor can you extort it from someone.

If you truly feel love because you received mystical baptism I think that’s what happen to Jeremiah - rarely does anyone feel love for God. John the Baptist felt love for God. But you don’t need to feel it you just have to will it- but WHAT A BLESSING FROM GOD TO FEEL LOVE FOR GOD!

The love of God is truly a blessing, but otherwise I have no idea what you are trying to convey in this paragraph. Baptism is a sacramental grace, however the love of God cannot be 'WILLED" into existence by someone who wants it. It is freely given and freely received.

Most people suffer from feel hatred for each other and hating themselves it seems and for God. But people can’t help how they feel.

Again, I do not understand what you are trying to convey here. Your writing has some grammatical errors that make it difficult to understand, and even harder to figure out what this has to do with your OP. I agree people do suffer, and feel hatred on many levels. I disagree that people cant help how they feel to a certain level. Hate is a choice. Love is a choice. What any of this has to do with holding a gun to a priest’s head and demanding forgiveness is beyond me.

So you have to demand goodness - kindness from sinners because of their hatred selfishness and self-centeredness they will not freely give it.

No sir. God granted mankind FREE WILL. In other words he gave each and every individual the ability to chose between right and wrong. Therefore those who chose right might gain merit in heaven, because they have chosen it freely. We chose Christ freely. We forgive freely. I submit to you that if you were to put a gun to a persons head and force them to go to church is folly. They gain no merit for the good act because they did not chose it for themselves. Likewise you have gained no merit because you have openly defied the very principles which God has set up.

Open your Holy Bible. Read the parable of the sower. We are meant to scatter the seeds (the Word of God). Some places it will find root and bear fruit. Other places it will fall to the side of the road and be choked by weeds. Such is the way of the world.

You cannot force people to love God, nor can you force virtue upon those who do not want it.

 

[opusAquinas]

Imagine the devil and his demons were harassing you like St. Anthony of the desert. They were tormenting you and you were trying to free yourself but they tormented you mentally spiritually and physically. And the only way to be freed from their harassment was by a blessing from a priest. Now this prayer was so effective that even if you put a gun to a priest head and forced him to say it against his will it is so effective-a person is freed from diabolical harassment. It would seem that God did this because God knew that priests are sinners just like everyone else. Now it would seem under these circumstances that even a little wrong can produce a greater good. Just like when Jacob lied to his father breaking the 10 Commandments of honoring your mother and father in order to get the special blessing from his father. So if a person does this and gets to heaven well it seems even the little wrong can produce a greater good. Which kind of makes me wonder Catholic sin and non-Catholic sin but only Catholics can be forgiven. What a blessing it is to be a Catholic! So when we look around at other Catholics we must wonder about God’s mercy.

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism:

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6).** The end does not justify the means.
**

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm#1753

 

[opusAquinas]

It is defined explicitly by the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, ch. iv de Contritione): “a sorrow of soul and a hatred of sin committed, with a firm purpose of not sinning in the future”.

Love of God is a glorious thing, but one can love God and still fall into sin. Even Peter, who loved Jesus, denied him three times. Afterward he was truly contrite and asked our Risen Lord for forgiveness. Love of God and contriteness of heart go hand in hand, but they are not precisely the same thing.

Again, you cannot demand forgiveness at gunpoint. You cannot buy heaven, nor can you extort it from someone.

The love of God is truly a blessing, but otherwise I have no idea what you are trying to convey in this paragraph. Baptism is a sacramental grace, however the love of God cannot be 'WILLED" into existence by someone who wants it. It is freely given and freely received.

Again, I do not understand what you are trying to convey here. Your writing has some grammatical errors that make it difficult to understand, and even harder to figure out what this has to do with your OP. I agree people do suffer, and feel hatred on many levels. I disagree that people cant help how they feel to a certain level. Hate is a choice. Love is a choice. What any of this has to do with holding a gun to a priest’s head and demanding forgiveness is beyond me.

No sir. God granted mankind FREE WILL. In other words he gave each and every individual the ability to chose between right and wrong. Therefore those who chose right might gain merit in heaven, because they have chosen it freely. We chose Christ freely. We forgive freely. I submit to you that if you were to put a gun to a persons head and force them to go to church is folly. They gain no merit for the good act because they did not chose it for themselves. Likewise you have gained no merit because you have openly defied the very principles which God has set up.

Open your Holy Bible. Read the parable of the sower. We are meant to scatter the seeds (the Word of God). Some places it will find root and bear fruit. Other places it will fall to the side of the road and be choked by weeds. Such is the way of the world.

You cannot force people to love God, nor can you force virtue upon those who do not want it.

Actually if you read the Council of Trent on perfect contrition that my clarify things for you.It might be problematic that you don’t know what it feels like to love if you haven’t loved anything ever through your feelings. So it’s like telling a blind person what a tree looks like. In any case God chooses whom he chooses and gives the blessings that he chooses to give.

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism:

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6).** The end does not justify the means.
**

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm#1753

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

Actually if you read the Council of Trent on perfect contrition that my clarify things for you.

Thats what I posted for you above.

My original answer to your OP still stands. You cannot force grace at gunpoint.

 

[opusAquinas]

Catechism:

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6).** The end does not justify the means.
**
1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm#1753

I understand quoting from the catechism is important because you need to backup your sources – you can say holy mother Church says so. But it also seems that we should look back on what the church teaches and ask if it makes any sense? It seems what you just quote it makes a lot of sense to me. You can’t do an evil action and justify by a good intention. Brilliant. Intentions matter that’s a very good point. And it seems more often than not that that is precisely what happens that is, what these paragraphs condemn. Nevertheless, God manages to make good from all the evil, that is sin we do. So the temptation is we can get away with stealing spiritual and temporal goods be sorry for having done it and still managed to get into heaven-all Catholics that managed to get into heaven managed to do that.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

Imagine the devil and his demons were harassing you like St. Anthony of the desert. They were tormenting you and you were trying to free yourself but they tormented you mentally spiritually and physically. And the only way to be freed from their harassment was by a blessing from a priest. Now this prayer was so effective that even if you put a gun to a priest head and forced him to say it against his will it is so effective-a person is freed from diabolical harassment. It would seem that God did this because God knew that priests are sinners just like everyone else. Now it would seem under these circumstances that even a little wrong can produce a greater good. Just like when Jacob lied to his father breaking the 10 Commandments of honoring your mother and father in order to get the special blessing from his father. So if a person does this and gets to heaven well it seems even the little wrong can produce a greater good. Which kind of makes me wonder Catholic sin and non-Catholic sin but only Catholics can be forgiven. What a blessing it is to be a Catholic! So when we look around at other Catholics we must wonder about God’s mercy.

There are so many things theologically wrong with this statement that I am truly baffled. I do not mean to offend, but out of love I have to ask “How do you call yourself a Catholic?” This paragraph indicates that you either do not know, or do not understand the most basic precepts of the faith.

Again, I am not attacking you, but I urge you to get guidance from your priest. Perhaps sit in on an RCIA class (it is Lent, after all). Explore your faith more and these errors will become evident to you, and you can come forth a better equipped Christian.

 

[Bookcat]

Nevertheless, God manages to make good from all the evil, that is sin we do.

We are talking about HUMAN actions - not the about how God can bring good out of our evil.

So the temptation is we can get away with stealing spiritual and temporal goods be sorry for having done it and still managed to get into heaven-all Catholics that managed to get into heaven managed to do that.

No you cannot “steal” spiritual goods. You cannot commit a mortal sin in using a gun to be absolved…the absolution will be invalid. Period.

 

[davidv]

You can admonish sinners and that’s the way Our Lord wants us to treat each other but then sometimes you might be in a situation where you must be like Jacob and break the ten commandment of honoring your mother and father in order to get the blessing.

You see how people behave and how they ought to but how people must act do get a good.

The philosophical question is one of intent.

Why only intent. Morality depends on three fonts:

1750 The morality of human acts depends on:

• the object chosen;
• the end in view or the intention;
• the circumstances of the action.

The object, the intention, and the circumstances make up the “sources,” or constitutive elements, of the morality of human acts.

It’s funny how everybody has to say the nice thing but its like no one says how things really go.

There is a very long way between “say the nice thing” and threatening violence. How things really go are often immoral.

 

[opusAquinas]

Thats what I posted for you above.

My original answer to your OP still stands. You cannot force grace at gunpoint.

You cannot force grace at gunpoint-let’s clarify that together. Can you get a sacramental or sacrament by force? Obviously perfect contrition-feeling sorry for your sins because you love God and are sorry for having offended God because of this love you have for God. Feelings are not necessary but an act of the will is required-and all of that-perfect contrition is a grace from God directly.

But we were mentioning rather I was mentioning if there were sacraments and sacramental’s that can be received by force that is, against the will or rather the intention of the priest. But if there were say, a blessing that you can force that is again against the will of the priest to say to you which is effective regardless of it being said against the will of the priest then it seems God would permit it but for what reason?

Example, when the priest says the mass it is effective as long as the priest is doing what the Church intends and not on the faith or holiness of the priest. Clearly we know why God planned it that way.

 

[Bookcat]

The receiver of the Sacrament of Confession there - is not disposed to receive. It is not valid.