May I ask a Question?

[Vaclav]

I’ve read a number of threads on here that seem to degenerate into a real nasty verbal war between “liberals” and “conservatives.” By the way, for Europeans, liberals means something else entirely and it might be more accurate to say “leftists.”

I’m working towards converting and am a bit concerned. I’ll be honest, I don’t really believe in the War on Terrorism or the Iraq Invasion. Primarily I don’t have that much faith in politicians, nor do I believe the machinery of war has the ability to change hearts and minds.

I have little respect for President Bush, but that doesn’t mean I find the Democrats any more appealing than the Republicans. Suffice it to say that I’ve done enough work with politics to have succesfully lost respect for most politicians. I don’t find the economic arguments appealing from either side.

So my question is this: can I find a place within Catholicism where I don’t have to be told how to vote and why one party is more “godly” than another, etc. To be honest you all are about twenty years behind the evangelicals in this process and I’ve never found it appealing then or now.

I’d rather put my faith in Christ and my time and effort into learning more about His Church.

I read somewhere that Jesus would have voted for Bush in 2004. I’d hope that he’d not have voted at all when faced with a candidate that supports abortion and a candidate who mocked and laughed at a woman before he had her put to death.

Just my opinions and I don’t want to cause trouble or start any more left versus right battles.

 

[gilliam]

In Catholicism we don’t endorse political parties. We have core beliefs based upon our faith. Those beliefs must affect our actions, and in doing so will affect who we vote for as our proxies (aka politicians).

As Catholics, we can differ on if a politician is or is not justly pursuing his duties, and most of the arguments in this forum seem to revolve around that.

We also often differ with what some of our clergy might view as a correct course of action. A good example is that many Catholics do not agree with Cardinal Mahoney on many immigration issues, however we would tend to agree with him on human rights issues since they are closer to our core beliefs.

For a good guide on politics and voting, see:

The Catholic Answers’ Voter Guide

I don’t know if this is much help. If not, ask some more questions.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vaclav:

I’ve read a number of threads on here that seem to degenerate into a real nasty verbal war between “liberals” and “conservatives.” By the way, for Europeans, liberals means something else entirely and it might be more accurate to say “leftists.”

I’m working towards converting and am a bit concerned. I’ll be honest, I don’t really believe in the War on Terrorism or the Iraq Invasion. Primarily I don’t have that much faith in politicians, nor do I believe the machinery of war has the ability to change hearts and minds.

I have little respect for President Bush, but that doesn’t mean I find the Democrats any more appealing than the Republicans. Suffice it to say that I’ve done enough work with politics to have succesfully lost respect for most politicians. I don’t find the economic arguments appealing from either side.

So my question is this: can I find a place within Catholicism where I don’t have to be told how to vote and why one party is more “godly” than another, etc. To be honest you all are about twenty years behind the evangelicals in this process and I’ve never found it appealing then or now.

I’d rather put my faith in Christ and my time and effort into learning more about His Church.

I read somewhere that Jesus would have voted for Bush in 2004. I’d hope that he’d not have voted at all when faced with a candidate that supports abortion and a candidate who mocked and laughed at a woman before he had her put to death.

Just my opinions and I don’t want to cause trouble or start any more left versus right battles.

Do you accept the Magisterium?

That is the Church’s authority to teach the message of Christ, without error. If you accept that, then that is all that is required of a Catholic. Of course acceptance of the Magisterium also means acceptance of what is taught – a Catholic cannot honestly be “pro-choice,” nor deny the Divinity of Christ, the Real Presence, and so on.

If you accept the Magisterium, as outlined above, then you can be Catholic.

 

[Geldain]

Vaclav:

I’ve read a number of threads on here that seem to degenerate into a real nasty verbal war between “liberals” and “conservatives.”

Sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t. Usually depends on the honesty and validity of the argument under discussion.

By the way, for Europeans, liberals means something else entirely and it might be more accurate to say “leftists.”

The term certainly means something different in America, to be sure.

I’m working towards converting

God Bless you!!! Welcome Home!

and am a bit concerned.

Regarding converting to the Catholic Church, don’t be.

I’ll be honest, I don’t really believe in the War on Terrorism or the Iraq Invasion.

Not a precondition for becoming Catholic.

Primarily I don’t have that much faith in politicians, nor do I believe the machinery of war has the ability to change hearts and minds.

That would be a great topic for discussion in a different thread

I have little respect for President Bush, but that doesn’t mean I find the Democrats any more appealing than the Republicans. Suffice it to say that I’ve done enough work with politics to have succesfully lost respect for most politicians. I don’t find the economic arguments appealing from either side.

I appreciate your honesty.

So my question is this: can I find a place within Catholicism where I don’t have to be told how to vote and why one party is more “godly” than another, etc.

To my knowledge, that place** is **the Catholic Church.

To be honest you all are about twenty years behind the evangelicals in this process and I’ve never found it appealing then or now.

Sorry we are behind the evangelical times Based on what I know now, if I am always behind them it’s fine with me.

I’d rather put my faith in Christ and my time and effort into learning more about His Church.

I have no doubt you will be Blessed beyond measure as a result.

I read somewhere that Jesus would have voted for Bush in 2004. I’d hope that he’d not have voted at all when faced with a candidate that supports abortion and a candidate who mocked and laughed at a woman before he had her put to death.

I can’t say I’ve read that Jesus would have voted for Bush in 2004 or 2000, for that matter. I assume the candidates you mentioned are Kerry and Bush. I concur with you regarding the abartion issue. I have no info that Bush laughed or mocked anyone put to death in Texas while he was governor. Might be a good topic for another thread if you have a link to share with us.

Just my opinions and I don’t want to cause trouble or start any more left versus right battles.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Benedictus]

Vaclav:

So my question is this: can I find a place within Catholicism where I don’t have to be told how to vote and why one party is more “godly” than another, etc.

Yes, you can. Keep in mind that this forum isn’t representative of the entire Church.

 

[buffalo]

Vaclav:

So my question is this: can I find a place within Catholicism where I don’t have to be told how to vote and why one party is more “godly” than another, etc. To be honest you all are about twenty years behind the evangelicals in this process and I’ve never found it appealing then or now.

.

A faithful Catholic will certainly make political judgements. It is a duty to vote so one must make choices.

As you learn more you will understand what the Church teaches and if you are faithful it will actually be a pretty easy choice.

The Catholic Church doesn’t tell you how to vote, but Catholic teaching is influential.

 

[Vaclav]

Thanks all for the responses.

I cannot start RCIA until September. I’ve come to Catholicism through a roundabout way really. I’m half-German and started out at a fire and brimstone church with my grandparents as a kid. Then I moved to a Lutheran church, in which I was baptized. My mom, otherwise a very loving person and a great nurse, is a rabid anti-catholic and an evangelical.

I’m rather excited about it.

I hesitate to get into this. I’m not here to choose up sides or preach any dislike of one group over another. Some people asked, so here are the sources asked for above:

Here’s a Catholic that suggests that Jesus would have voted for Bush:

catholicism.about.com/b/a/2004_07_07.htm

Here is the information on Bush mocking Karla Faye Tucker before she was put to death. An appeal for clemency was made by then Pope John Paul II by the way.

Talk Magazine September 1999 p. 106 - the interviewee is Tucker Carlson:

In the weeks before the execution, Bush says, a number of protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Karla Faye Tucker. “Did you meet with any of them?” I ask. Bush whips around and stares at me. “No, I didn’t meet with any of them,” he snaps, as though I’ve just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. “I didn’t meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with Tucker, though. He asked her real difficult questions like, ‘What would you say to Governor Bush?’” “What was her answer?” I wonder. “‘Please,’” Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, “‘don’t kill me.’” I must look shocked — ridiculing the pleas of a condemned prisoner who has since been executed seems odd and cruel — because he immediately stops smirking.

Sister Helen Prejean said this about Governor Bush:

“As governor, Bush certainly did not stand apart in his routine refusal to deny clemency to death row petitioners, but what does set him apart is the sheer number of executions over which he has presided. Callous indifference to human suffering may also set Bush apart. He may be the only government official to mock a condemned person’s plea for mercy, then lie about it afterward, claiming humane feelings he never felt. On the contrary, it seems that Bush is comfortable with using violent solutions to solve troublesome social and political realities.”

 

[gilliam]

Vaclav:

Here is the information on Bush mocking Karla Faye Tucker before she was put to death. An appeal for clemency was made by then Pope John Paul II by the way.

Talk Magazine September 1999 p. 106 - the interviewee is Tucker Carlson:

In the weeks before the execution, Bush says, a number of protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Karla Faye Tucker. “Did you meet with any of them?” I ask. Bush whips around and stares at me. “No, I didn’t meet with any of them,” he snaps, as though I’ve just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. “I didn’t meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with Tucker, though. He asked her real difficult questions like, ‘What would you say to Governor Bush?’” “What was her answer?” I wonder. “‘Please,’” Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, “‘don’t kill me.’” I must look shocked — ridiculing the pleas of a condemned prisoner who has since been executed seems odd and cruel — because he immediately stops smirking.

Sister Helen Prejean said this about Governor Bush:

“As governor, Bush certainly did not stand apart in his routine refusal to deny clemency to death row petitioners, but what does set him apart is the sheer number of executions over which he has presided. Callous indifference to human suffering may also set Bush apart. He may be the only government official to mock a condemned person’s plea for mercy, then lie about it afterward, claiming humane feelings he never felt. On the contrary, it seems that Bush is comfortable with using violent solutions to solve troublesome social and political realities.”

Sounds more like he was mocking the people who were petitioning him. Not sure why. Maybe there is some history there…anyway, then others put words in Bush’s mouth saying he said things he obviously didn’t say. So your pointing to some pretty weak evidence here. If you want to talk about it further, start another thread with a link to a news article about it and I am sure people will chime in.

You don’t have to start on formal RCIA classes, start reading the Catechism. It is available online here:
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

I like that site because you can search for items of interest.

 

[Vaclav]

Thanks.

I do study the Catechism as well as some other books given to me by the local church.

I was fortunate enough in Univeristy to be able to read works by Saint Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus, Abelard, Barnard, and other notable scholastics. I enjoy those writings a great deal and the early history of the Church is always enjoyable for me.

 

[gilliam]

Vaclav:

Thanks.

I do study the Catechism as well as some other books given to me by the local church.

I was fortunate enough in Univeristy to be able to read works by Saint Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus, Abelard, Barnard, and other notable scholastics. I enjoy those writings a great deal and the early history of the Church is always enjoyable for me.

Cool. Sounds like your are getting a foundation. There is a lot to our Faith, probably the best thing about our Church is that we encourage people to investigate and edify themselves (we are a bit different than the evangelicals here).

With your interest in the subject of the war, you might want to pick up a copy of First Things: “Iraq: Then & Now” by George Weigel, April 2006 and U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops: “Iraq,” February 2006 (remember, this is not dogma but recommendations coming from the bishops)

 

[Marauder]

You can be a republican, democrat or independant and be Catholic.

Actually it has only been since the democratic party has taken a pro-abortion stance that a lot of Catholic democrats are switching sides.

You can be anti-Bush and be Catholic. Not everything Bush does is liked by all Catholics. The sad reality of voting in this country is with most elections you have to pick the better of two evils.

Since I fully support the churchs view that ALL abortion is evil, until the democratic party takes out its pro-abortion plank I will have to vote the side of people that are more pro-life in ALL its forms which is usually the republican side.

Of course since I live in Maryland a VERY Democratic state my vote doesn’t count much. Although we did finally have our first Republican governor in a long time.

 

[koda]

I just want to add that I heard about Bush mocking Tucker from a lot of sources and have no reason to believe it is not accurate.

 

[Della]

Vaclav:

Thanks all for the responses.

On behalf of those who responded, I’ll take the liberty to say, “You’re welcome.” And for myself, welcome to the board and to the process of entering the Church.

I cannot start RCIA until September. I’ve come to Catholicism through a roundabout way really. I’m half-German and started out at a fire and brimstone church with my grandparents as a kid. Then I moved to a Lutheran church, in which I was baptized. My mom, otherwise a very loving person and a great nurse, is a rabid anti-catholic and an evangelical.

As Gilliam suggests, you can certainly start reading solid Catholic teaching while you wait for the beginning of RCIA in September. There’s lots of great material to read depending on where your interest lies. Let us know your preferences and we’ll suggest books, etc. we think will help you.

As to your mother’s attitude, sadly it is no news to us. What she really hates is what she’s been told about the Church not what the Church actually is or teaches. You must realize that or you wouldn’t be looking seriously into becoming Catholic, yes?

I hesitate to get into this. I’m not here to choose up sides or preach any dislike of one group over another. Some people asked, so here are the sources asked for above:

Here is the information on Bush mocking Karla Faye Tucker before she was put to death. An appeal for clemency was made by then Pope John Paul II by the way.

Talk Magazine September 1999 p. 106 - the interviewee is Tucker Carlson:

In the weeks before the execution, Bush says, a number of protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Karla Faye Tucker. “Did you meet with any of them?” I ask. Bush whips around and stares at me. “No, I didn’t meet with any of them,” he snaps, as though I’ve just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. “I didn’t meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with Tucker, though. He asked her real difficult questions like, ‘What would you say to Governor Bush?’” “What was her answer?” I wonder. “‘Please,’” Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, “‘don’t kill me.’” I must look shocked — ridiculing the pleas of a condemned prisoner who has since been executed seems odd and cruel — because he immediately stops smirking.

Sister Helen Prejean said this about Governor Bush:

“As governor, Bush certainly did not stand apart in his routine refusal to deny clemency to death row petitioners, but what does set him apart is the sheer number of executions over which he has presided. Callous indifference to human suffering may also set Bush apart. He may be the only government official to mock a condemned person’s plea for mercy, then lie about it afterward, claiming humane feelings he never felt. On the contrary, it seems that Bush is comfortable with using violent solutions to solve troublesome social and political realities.”

The interviewer gives us his impression of the look on the then Governor’s face. What kind of information is that? Isn’t it more likely that the interviewer read into Bush’s expressions what he wanted to see there? Or misinterpreted them due to his bias? That is much more likely the case than Bush being hard-hearted and mocking. I’ve seen Bush interviewed and so am familiar enough with his style to know that he was merely being pedantic, a fault of his, rather than cruel. He just doesn’t dance to the same tune as those who oppose the death penalty for any reason, and that is hardly cruelty.

And while I understand John Paul II’s call for clemency, Bush wasn’t wrong to let the execution go ahead. The Church clearly teaches that governments have the right to exact the death penalty in cases it feels warrants it by law. John Paul II’s personal opinion and that of many other bishops aren’t Church teaching. Of course, Church teaching also says that if other means, such as life time incarceration can be employed for the safety of the public and the exacting of justice then that is what ought to be done, but it is still up to individual governments to make that decision, which is why the Pope could ask for clemency but not demand it.

As for Sr. Helen Prejean, she so obviously has an agenda and has been on the forefront of the anti-execution cause. It hardly matters to her if the victims of vicious and violent crimes have redress of the law. Apparently, her bleeding heart doesn’t extend that far. The victims are yesterday’s news to that woman, sad to say. She doesn’t speak for the Church, thanks be, only for her own opinions, which are colored by her own biases.

 

[gilliam]

koda:

I just want to add that I heard about Bush mocking Tucker from a lot of sources and have no reason to believe it is not accurate.

Like the “fact” that Bush said Iraq was responsible for 9/11 that we hear from a lot of sources? Come on, rumors are just that, rumors…

 

[Zerith]

Vaclav:

By the way, for Europeans, liberals means something else entirely and it might be more accurate to say “leftists.”

Just:

?

 

[buffalo]

Marauder:

You can be a republican, democrat or independant and be Catholic.

Actually it has only been since the democratic party has taken a pro-abortion stance that a lot of Catholic democrats are switching sides.

You can be anti-Bush and be Catholic. Not everything Bush does is liked by all Catholics. The sad reality of voting in this country is with most elections you have to pick the better of two evils.

Since I fully support the churchs view that ALL abortion is evil, until the democratic party takes out its pro-abortion plank I will have to vote the side of people that are more pro-life in ALL its forms which is usually the republican side.

Of course since I live in Maryland a VERY Democratic state my vote doesn’t count much. Although we did finally have our first Republican governor in a long time.

Here is the Catholic Voters Guide. It sets forth the principles of voting as a Catholic.

 

[aimee]

Vaclav:

Thanks all for the responses.

I cannot start RCIA until September. I’ve come to Catholicism through a roundabout way really. I’m half-German and started out at a fire and brimstone church with my grandparents as a kid. Then I moved to a Lutheran church, in which I was baptized. My mom, otherwise a very loving person and a great nurse, is a rabid anti-catholic and an evangelical.

I’m rather excited about it.

I hesitate to get into this. I’m not here to choose up sides or preach any dislike of one group over another. Some people asked, so here are the sources asked for above:

Here’s a Catholic that suggests that Jesus would have voted for Bush:

catholicism.about.com/b/a/2004_07_07.htm

Here is the information on Bush mocking Karla Faye Tucker before she was put to death. An appeal for clemency was made by then Pope John Paul II by the way.

Talk Magazine September 1999 p. 106 - the interviewee is Tucker Carlson:

In the weeks before the execution, Bush says, a number of protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Karla Faye Tucker. “Did you meet with any of them?” I ask. Bush whips around and stares at me. “No, I didn’t meet with any of them,” he snaps, as though I’ve just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. “I didn’t meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with Tucker, though. He asked her real difficult questions like, ‘What would you say to Governor Bush?’” “What was her answer?” I wonder. “‘Please,’” Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, “‘don’t kill me.’” I must look shocked — ridiculing the pleas of a condemned prisoner who has since been executed seems odd and cruel — because he immediately stops smirking.

Sister Helen Prejean said this about Governor Bush:

“As governor, Bush certainly did not stand apart in his routine refusal to deny clemency to death row petitioners, but what does set him apart is the sheer number of executions over which he has presided. Callous indifference to human suffering may also set Bush apart. He may be the only government official to mock a condemned person’s plea for mercy, then lie about it afterward, claiming humane feelings he never felt. On the contrary, it seems that Bush is comfortable with using violent solutions to solve troublesome social and political realities.”

I am against the death penalty. I am sorry to see Sr Prejean is not pro life. When was the last time she spoke out against abortion or marched in a pro life rally.

Welcome to the forums

 

[koda]

gilliam:

Like the “fact” that Bush said Iraq was responsible for 9/11 that we hear from a lot of sources? Come on, rumors are just that, rumors…

With all due respect, he is quoted in the interview and I have never seen a denial. I know you really like Bush, but give those of us who feel differently the respect to believe the sources that, to us, are legitimate. And this has nothing whatever to do with the 9/11 “facts.”

 

[Geldain]

koda:

With all due respect, he is quoted in the interview and I have never seen a denial. I know you really like Bush, but give those of us who feel differently the respect to believe the sources that, to us, are legitimate. And this has nothing whatever to do with the 9/11 “facts.”

Just as we are free to reject the sources that to us, are not legitimate

 

[Vaclav]

As to your mother’s attitude, sadly it is no news to us. What she really hates is what she’s been told about the Church not what the Church actually is or teaches. You must realize that or you wouldn’t be looking seriously into becoming Catholic, yes?

Indeed. I don’t know all of her experiences with Catholics and she does come from a part of Germany where there was a geopolitical split between Catholics and Lutherans. But yes, I agree that much of what Protestants fear and what I was taught about the Church was utterly false.

If anyone could, I’d like suggestions on a book about Mary.

I respectfully disagree on capital punishment as the last paragraph of 2267 in the Catachism states: Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

It doesn’t sound as though the case for capital punishment can be made very often at all. Yet, I understand your point.

The interviewer in the selection above was Tucker Carlson, a conservative interviewer. I think that’s why most people found it believable. Though I agree with the poster that President Bush can make awkward gestures and smile at bizarre times. So it is difficult to tell what was meant.

I am very much pro-life. I just wonder how much some politicians are pro-life or how much they are simply paying it lip service.

Just:

?

In Europe the word “liberal” as in the United Kingdom’s Liberal Democrat Party, means liberal economic policies. Liberal essentially is associated with freedom, so that a liberal economist would espouse freer markets and less government regulation. A liberal on social policy would believe in choice on abortion, gay marriage, etc.

The word in American lingo has been misused for decades to associate “liberals” with any leftist policy.