Muslims: Why would God make a revelation that is contradictory to the revelation of Jesus?

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TheSufi said:
Islam contradicts Orthodox and Catholic Christianity, but it does not contradict the revelation of Jesus. So for the Muslims perspective, there is no contradiction.
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. When certain people taken upon themselves the “right” to interpret, and indoctrinate others into accepting their interpretation as authoritative, dogma tends to be elevated above the Word of Revelation itself, and tradition becomes an idol to be worshipped above God, Who has given all men the capacity to hear His voice and thereby recognize Him for themselves, determining for themselves, what He is saying to them, and through Whom He speaks.

. I cannot interpret the Word of God for anyone, having neither the right nor capacity to do so, and can only fail should I attempt it. That others may choose to dictate what anyone else may individually think takes away from that one’s individuality and freedom to hear with their own ears and to form their own impressions of that which God implants in their hearts.

. The Revelations sent down by God are not for men to argue over and create schisms, by which they manipulate and create followings for themselves. The sign of one’s Faith is in the toleration shown for others who believe and understand differently, and demonstrate in their actions what that Faith means to them.

. There is no contradiction in the successive Revelations sent down by God, but as men record the traditions recited to them, and learn to repeat only the dogma they are accustomed to hearing, and then attach emotions to them, a spirit of contention and conflict is generated which divides humanity against itself.

. “Nothing short of the unity of the entire human race will suffice to heal the ills which afflict mankind. All the Prophets proclaim the same Faith.”

. For uttering such words as these, Baha’u’llah was forced into prison and exiled for forty years.
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TheSufi said:
The similarities between Christianity and Islam, are the same similarities between Christianity and Judaism.

Both Jews and Muslims reject that God became man, is man, incarnates etc.
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Dear Sufi friend,
. Always delighted when your name pops in here, adding the diversity representing many more systems of belief, culture to share in, unique and fresh insights. Thank you for sharing with us.
. May I ask you to listen ot a short song by danny Seals, whom I met on several occasions, always elevating my spirit. this song, We are One is truly, truly one of the most moving songs I know of: “We are One”

youtube.com/watch?v=zX0rqvF1uyk
 
TheSufi said:
My exact conclusion of the Catholic Church, that it is man made.
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You have to at least admit that the evidence that we have suggests that the Gospels were in fact not changed over the years. That much really can’t be debated. I suppose if one wanted to they could claim that it was the Devil that has made the evidence seem this way, or that despite the strong evidence, that by Faith you still believe that they were changed. But whatever you believe, you must admit that the objective evidence does in fact point towards the Gospels having never changed. Every fragment of the old gospels that have been found.

Scholars agree that the Gospel of Mark was written around 70AD. There are surviving fragments of a manuscript of the Gospel of Mark which are dated to 225 AD, showing that it is the same book that we have now. There are fragments of the Gospel of Mathew dated at 90 AD. There are old copies of the other two books as well, but Im not sure of the dates. At any rate, there is nothing that has ever been found which suggests that the Gospels have been changed even in the slightest. You can accept it on Faith alone that they have been changed, which I can somewhat understand as there are things that I accept on Faith alone. But the evidence has to make one wonder.

Peace to you
 
daler said:
. When certain people taken upon themselves the “right” to interpret, and indoctrinate others into accepting their interpretation as authoritative, dogma tends to be elevated above the Word of Revelation itself, and tradition becomes an idol to be worshipped above God, Who has given all men the capacity to hear His voice and thereby recognize Him for themselves, determining for themselves, what He is saying to them, and through Whom He speaks.

. I cannot interpret the Word of God for anyone, having neither the right nor capacity to do so, and can only fail should I attempt it. That others may choose to dictate what anyone else may individually think takes away from that one’s individuality and freedom to hear with their own ears and to form their own impressions of that which God implants in their hearts.

. The Revelations sent down by God are not for men to argue over and create schisms, by which they manipulate and create followings for themselves. The sign of one’s Faith is in the toleration shown for others who believe and understand differently, and demonstrate in their actions what that Faith means to them.

. There is no contradiction in the successive Revelations sent down by God, but as men record the traditions recited to them, and learn to repeat only the dogma they are accustomed to hearing, and then attach emotions to them, a spirit of contention and conflict is generated which divides humanity against itself.

. “Nothing short of the unity of the entire human race will suffice to heal the ills which afflict mankind. All the Prophets proclaim the same Faith.”

. For uttering such words as these, Baha’u’llah was forced into prison and exiled for forty years.
.
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No truer words have ever been spoken than these, and history has confirmed time after time what you state. There is indeed more than a tendency for members of nearly every faith to believe that it alone contains the full truth, or at least as much as G-d has revealed. This motivational need to be correct is part of human nature and psychology, and it is further intensified after their devoting so much time, effort, and sacrifice to the faith that they finally arrive at a point where they can no longer change their views even if they should desire to do so.
 
St_Redemption said:
You have to at least admit that the evidence that we have suggests that the Gospels were in fact not changed over the years. That much really can’t be debated.

Peace to you
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Anything can be debated. Every scholar has a different criteria on what is evidence and what isn’t, and scholars differ on how the evidence is to be understood.
Nothing is black and white.
 
meltzerboy said:
No truer words have ever been spoken than these, and history has confirmed time after time what you state. There is indeed more than a tendency for members of nearly every faith to believe that it alone contains the full truth, or at least as much as G-d has revealed. This motivational need to be correct is part of human nature and psychology, and it is further intensified after their devoting so much time, effort, and sacrifice to the faith that they finally arrive at a point where they can no longer change their views even if they should desire to do so.
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Still you dont get it.

MJ
 
daler said:
. When certain people taken upon themselves the “right” to interpret, and indoctrinate others into accepting their interpretation as authoritative, dogma tends to be elevated above the Word of Revelation itself, and tradition becomes an idol to be worshipped above God, Who has given all men the capacity to hear His voice and thereby recognize Him for themselves, determining for themselves, what He is saying to them, and through Whom He speaks.

. I cannot interpret the Word of God for anyone, having neither the right nor capacity to do so, and can only fail should I attempt it. That others may choose to dictate what anyone else may individually think takes away from that one’s individuality and freedom to hear with their own ears and to form their own impressions of that which God implants in their hearts.

. The Revelations sent down by God are not for men to argue over and create schisms, by which they manipulate and create followings for themselves. The sign of one’s Faith is in the toleration shown for others who believe and understand differently, and demonstrate in their actions what that Faith means to them.

. There is no contradiction in the successive Revelations sent down by God, but as men record the traditions recited to them, and learn to repeat only the dogma they are accustomed to hearing, and then attach emotions to them, a spirit of contention and conflict is generated which divides humanity against itself.

. “Nothing short of the unity of the entire human race will suffice to heal the ills which afflict mankind. All the Prophets proclaim the same Faith.”

. For uttering such words as these, Baha’u’llah was forced into prison and exiled for forty years.
.
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Daler why did you sweep under the rug what Jesus said that he is Way,the Truth and the Life?

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Patently false. Yesterday, Today and Forever is the actual answer.

MJ
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Martin, we have discussed on several occasions the meaning of the phrase “I am”

The reality is that the “I am” has been revealed through the Old Testament Prophets, Krishna and Zoroaster before Jesus, and the Bab and Baha’u’llah after Jesus. Why do you insist on denying this reality?

.
 
Servant19 said:
Martin, we have discussed on several occasions the meaning of the phrase “I am”

The reality is that the “I am” has been revealed through the Old Testament Prophets, Krishna and Zoroaster before Jesus, and the Bab and Baha’u’llah after Jesus. Why do you insist on denying this reality?

.
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The reality is Muslims don’t agree with you either. Krishna indeed.🤷

Btw, is the Sai Baba also your prophet? :rolleyes:

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
The reality is Muslims don’t agree with you either. Krishna indeed.🤷

Btw, is the Sai Baba also your prophet? :rolleyes:

MJ
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…there are millions of Muslims who do, and here goes the sarcasm again lol

…no Sai Baba is not considered a Prophet in the Baha’i Writings…

🙂

.
 
Servant19 said:
…there are millions of Muslims who do, and here goes the sarcasm again lol

…no Sai Baba is not considered a Prophet in the Baha’i Writings…

🙂

.
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Which millions of Muslims? Name one of them.

But the Sai Baba has several million followers. He must speaking truth too? Right?

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Which millions of Muslims? Name one of them.

But the Sai Baba has several million followers. He must speaking truth too? Right?

MJ
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I can name you millions my friend. There is a large contingent of Shia and Sufi Muslims who fully acknowledge the pre-existence of Muhammad as well as statements made which reflect the “I am”

Here two such statement that is attributed to Muhammad:
“I was a prophet when Adam was still between clay and water”
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“I am the first of mankind in creation and the last in resurrection.”
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Source: iranicaonline.org/articles/ensan-e-kamel

You can do some RESEARCH for yourself…its a God-given capacity endowed on all of us since Baha’u’llah exhorted all human beings to independently investigate the truth for themselves without relying on clergy.

Here’s a few pointers for you…google “Ibn Al-Arabi”, also “prophets of the Qutb”

🙂

.
 
Servant19 said:
I can name you millions my friend. There is a large contingent of Shia and Sufi Muslims who fully acknowledge the pre-existence of Muhammad as well as statements made which reflect the “I am”

Here two such statement that is attributed to Muhammad:

Source: iranicaonline.org/articles/ensan-e-kamel

You can do some RESEARCH for yourself…its a God-given capacity endowed on all of us since Baha’u’llah exhorted all human beings to independently investigate the truth for themselves without relying on clergy.

Here’s a few pointers for you…google “Ibn Al-Arabi”, also “prophets of the Qutb”

🙂

.
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I didn’t ask about Mohammed. Just give me a name of a sunni Organisation or Shiite that praises your prophet.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Daler why did you sweep under the rug what Jesus said that he is Way,the Truth and the Life?

MJ
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Martin,
. Thank you for stating what you see as an impasse. Here is the theological construct:

. The “Manifestation of God” is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Thus, in every Age in which the Manifestation of God appears, He is the Way to God. Do you follow? I’m not asking you to accept it. Just asking if you understand what the construct is.

. So we do not sweep anything under the rug, dodge, or play games in any way with any of this, although we have some different understandings of the nature of what has been taught by the Prophets.

. Going further, when Jesus said: “Before Abraham was, I am”, one way to consider this is that His reality existed prior to Abraham, right? And since Abraham physically existed before Jesus (as a physical person), then He could just as well say: “Before Jesus was, I am.”

. The point being, that the “Reality” of the Manifestation of God exists apart from Their appearance to us in human form (like ourselves), and that whenever that Reality is expressed as a Manifestation of God amongst us, He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is not restricted to a temporary physical and biological identity, whom we call by this or that name only, whether Moses, Jesus, or Muhammad, etc. That is the appearance at a specific time and place, for our benefit, that we might recognize the true Path to God by following Them, as They all lead us to God.
.
 
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