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Upgrade25
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I have read about the Near Death Experiences- NDEs - of Alex and Kevin Malarkey; as well as Howard Storm. Does the fact that they are Protestant still disprove the Church?
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Della
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NDEs can’t “prove” anything about…anything. They are personal experiences brought on by the mind’s reaction to nearly dying, which is like a intense dream. Naturally they are going to “see” and “feel” whatever they were expecting to see and feel, for our life experiences influence our dreams as well as our waking selves. If they were Protestant, they are going to visualize what they’d expect to see as Protestants.
There is nothing “spiritual” happening in the sense that God has necessarily revealed anything to these people. It’s just their own mind’s means of coping with dying. Besides, we only have their word for what they thought happened to them as they teetered on the edge of life and death. There isn’t any way to test their validity, no matter how sincere they may be.
There is nothing “spiritual” happening in the sense that God has necessarily revealed anything to these people. It’s just their own mind’s means of coping with dying. Besides, we only have their word for what they thought happened to them as they teetered on the edge of life and death. There isn’t any way to test their validity, no matter how sincere they may be.
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Upgrade25
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Howard Storm was an atheist…
Technically, couldn’t you say the same about Marian apparitions?
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Della
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He was probably brought up in some kind of Christian home or influenced by living in a nominally Christian society. Still, God could have revealed some things to him for his personal benefit, for God speaks to us where we are, in terms we can understand, if anything of the kind actually happened. That still says nothing at all about the truths of the Catholic faith, one way or the other.
Perhaps some–not those approved by the Church, however. Many people have thought they’ve had some such visitation, but it is their local bishop who determines if anything spiritual happened, and only if the person asks him to make that determination or it becomes an issue in his diocese. Every apparition the Church approves is thoroughly investigated with one of three decisions made about it by the local bishop. It’s not simply a matter of someone claiming to have seen Mary with their word accepted as fact.
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Memaw
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NO, the seers were awake and usually more than one of them except for Lourdes and Guadeloupe. God Bless, Memaw
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GEddie
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NDE may or may not be a “spiritual experience.” It could also just be the dying head using the last drop of breath in the body to fight the darkness. We don’t know either way and possibly can’t.
As such, it can never prove or disprove anything.
Marian apparitions usually have several people involved (Fatima) or a permanent physical sign left in place (Lourdes, Guadalupe). These would eliminate the possibility of a head-centered dream or vision, as such experiences are not shared, nor leave physical signs.
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As such, it can never prove or disprove anything.
Marian apparitions usually have several people involved (Fatima) or a permanent physical sign left in place (Lourdes, Guadalupe). These would eliminate the possibility of a head-centered dream or vision, as such experiences are not shared, nor leave physical signs.
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GEddie
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And while the seers at Lourdes and Guadalupe were alone, physical signs placed at both locales eliminate the possibility of dreaming. Dreams don’t create images nor open streams of water.
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John_Lazarus
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Yah. Tell me you don’t dream of waterfalls and rushing rivers, and then wake up ready to pee the bed.
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Randy_Carson
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Why would that be the case?
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GEddie
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The idea being that “if the Church is true” and if NDEs really open onto the afterlife, then A Protestant experiencer would run to RCIA once he was recovered.
Methods this oversimplifies the process of faith.
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fisherman_carl
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I don’t think one can just dismiss nde’s as merely the response of the brain to dieing. Fr. Spitzer talks about NDEs in his books and makes compelling cases for nde based on solid research studies of ndes overtime. For instance during an nde many blind people who have never seen experience seeing for the first time. As well there are many people who experience no nde under the same conditions suggesting that if it were the brain reaction to dying then why does it not happen to everyone? Also, these experiences happen after brain death yet the person experience s much more vivid reality x not a diminished reality that you would expect if the brain were shutting down. In additio some people report seeing and hearing things they could not have known. For instance being able describe everything the doctor did on the operating table. Or seeing and hearing conversations in another room that can be verified later. So there experience does not seem limited to the brain or body. In addition people who have had ndes often are no longer afraid of dying. And ndes can change people’s lives.
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HelenRose
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Can’t prove that either.
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fisherman_carl
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That’s an interesting question, but I don’t see how nde would dispprove the Catholic Church. It would just mean that Protestants could go to heaven too. But I don’t think that the CC would dispute that anyways.
Here is an example of a Catholic priest who had an nde.
youtu.be/QqiqO5BzH74
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Della
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I too have read about such cases, but they, once again, prove nothing about the Catholic faith, which is what the OP is concerned about.
Certainly God can reveal things to people at any point in their lives. At death’s door is a reasonable time to call people to examine their lives and grant them the opportunity to change themselves, if they survive. I’m only saying that NDEs are not proof for an afterlife let alone proof of whose theology is more correct. They may be viewed as evidence, but only as anecdotal evidence, based on personal experience. :tiphat:
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GEddie
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You’re aware that the Malarkey NDE incident has been disproven, or rather, recanted by those involved?
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fisherman_carl
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I was doing a search on your example and found this which would suggest the story may ne fiction.
christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/january/boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-retraction.html#bmb=1
christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/january/boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-retraction.html#bmb=1
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Upgrade25
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In the Storm NDE, if true, Jesus says to join whatever church brings him closer to God. Why not the Catholic Church?
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Upgrade25
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How could Mary change Jesus’ Will?
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Della
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We cannot definitely say that Jesus told him anything. Why? Because we only have Storm’s word for it. As I already wrote, such experiences are not proof of anything other than the experiences and desires of those who have them. The proof that the Church is correct in her teaching is in Christ’s word, written in Scripture in which he stated, “I will establish my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” We don’t base our faith on individual experiences, especially ones as questionable as these.
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Della
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Did Moses change God’s will? When God wanted to destroy Israel for their sins and restart with Moses and his family. Moses begged forgiveness for the people and God stayed his hand. God wants us to pray for his mercy for others. It doesn’t mean that God actually changed his will, rather it means that he allows himself to be moved by our love for others, based in His love.
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