Need lots of help

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JGravel

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I know I could probably research every little question on this e-mail I got but I am so deprived of the knowledge to look them up or answer all them. (not much time either)
A little History:
My friend, K, grew up Protestant, went to a Catholic College but now feels that she is a “free spirit” who chooses different things from different religions that she feels is right. She actually doesn’t believe in any organized religion. we have had an on going debate and I have answered alot of her questions but I obviously can’t get through because she asks similar questions over and over. I need help in answering this e-mail! She is all over the place.
I know all of you have helped me out in the past. I’m asking for help again.
inJESUS, where are you, I know you’ll have fun with this one!
One more thing: This is my wifes best friend and she is a mess in her private life (emotionally). We have had debates pop up here and there and she seems to drop them and then return a few months later. We think that God is calling us to help in her conversion. Why else would she always return to the debate for more. I have told her that I research her questions and ask others as she does with mine, so it seems we are just the “moderators” if you will in this debate.
Here it is:
Hello there! AK, and here we go 🙂

I believe that there are truths in every Religion… including Seventh-Day Adventism. I’m not saying I agree 100% with all their doctrines…esp. the one where all we were allowed to do on Saturdays was sleep. All I’m sayin is they have as much a shot of being “right” when accounting for their lives at those Golden Gates as you do.

To say that the Catholic Religion is the only true Religion with all the answers (as the author of that Catholic website seems to think), is to be blind. The title of your defense is “Catholic answers”…I could easily find an endless number of contradictory info. - just go to: “Jewish answers”, “Hindu answers”, “Evangelist answers”.

The Bible has been re-written and translated numerous times- there are arguments for every word meaning something different i.e. Jesus’ “brethren” meaning simply “friend” or even worse to Catholics, BROTHER. So how do you pick the right one? I guess you just take what looks good to you- or you believe what some one else has written and conjured up to be “the way”. Of course the “Catholic Answers” article is going to give you what you’re looking for. What would the World be without organized Religion and study groups to fill your heads? Religion serves a human purpose- it gives us a “reason”. It makes us feel that “things are going to be ok”. So whichever Religion is going to give you that “feel good” feeling is the one for you.

Question for you… where did the nun and monk idea come from?
 
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JGravel:
Question for you… where did the nun and monk idea come from?
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I’ll let the other great apologists on this forum respond. Your friend would benefit greatly with a bit of knowledge about Church history and Sacred Tradition. However, I will quickly respond to this last question.

Many prophets in the old Testament lived as monks-- as did John the baptist! 👍
 
Insist that your friend use specific examples, and refuse to talk to her if she keeps using these broad, empty platitudes. She needs to grow up emotionally and intellectually before it’s even possible to communicate with her.
 
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montanaman:
Insist that your friend use specific examples, and refuse to talk to her if she keeps using these broad, empty platitudes. She needs to grow up emotionally and intellectually before it’s even possible to communicate with her.
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Can you help me with the last question or perhaps point me in the right direction.
 
First, you may want to read the Gospel of John chapters 14 and 15 where Jesus promises to send the “Advocate,” “Paraclete,” or “Comforter/Consoler” depending on how your bible describes this entity which Jesus explains is the Holy Spirit.

It will call to mind all that I have said to you, teach you all things, guide you into all truth, and be with you forever. This is the Lord’s promise that His church, the one He will build on Peter the rock and that the gates of hell will not prevail against, will always be guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit.

So when she says…

“To say that the Catholic Religion is the only true Religion with all the answers (as the author of that Catholic website seems to think), is to be blind.”

She is, in effect, calling Christ a liar. Either one believes the Lord and His promises, or one does not. Ask her if she is willing to pray to the Lord…" Lord, help me find the truth because I do not believe that you and the Holy Spirit succeeded in maintaining the truth in the Apostolic church you established."

When she says:

“I guess you just take what looks good to you…”

Ask her to show you, either in Scripture or in Jewish/Catholic history, when God allowed the individual to pick and choose what they want to believe in. When Dathan and Kore rebelled against Moses, who was the one who possessed authority from God, God destroyed them. When 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel seperated from Judea after the death of Solomon, God sent them into permanent exile under the Assyrians.

When the Apostles at the last supper argued with each other, Christ told Peter that He prayed for Peter “alone,” because the devil wanted to “sift” the apostles like wheat. Jesus prayed that Peter’s faith would grow so that Peter would return in faith to Jesus so that he could then “strengthen his bretheren.” (Luke 22:31-32)

The Protestants broke from the rock foundation of Peter, and the devil has been sifting them ever since. (60,000 denominations and still sifting.)

Her problem is that her faith is weak. She can either trust the Lord to keep His promises and become a part of His apostolic church, or she can do it her own way; which is the same as saying I do not trust the Lord and His words.

But if she believes that those who reject the Lord’s church “… have as much a shot of being “right” when accounting for their lives at those Golden Gates as you do.” Tell her she is sadly mistaken.

Or perhaps, she can ask Dathan and Kore what went wrong.

Thal59
 
Thanks, Wow! 👍
One thing though,
When I read her any parts of the Bible, she immediately reminds me that she believes its man made, so telling her it was Jesus who sent the Holy Spirit who inspired the writings because thats whats in the Bible…
I’m not frustrated because I love the challenge, but I may need to stop and learn more myself.
 
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JGravel:
Thanks, Wow! 👍
One thing though,
When I read her any parts of the Bible, she immediately reminds me that she believes its man made, so telling her it was Jesus who sent the Holy Spirit who inspired the writings because thats whats in the Bible…
I’m not frustrated because I love the challenge, but I may need to stop and learn more myself.
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Have you asked her to prove to you that it is man-made and not inspired by the holy spirit? Yes men actually wrote the words down, but they were inspired by the holy spirit.
Ask her who compiled, orgainized and safeguarded these books to make the bible. It was the Catholic Church. Then tell her that Catholics can trace their apostacy all the way back to Peter…to whom Jesus said: 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.
 
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JGravel:
Thanks, Wow! 👍
One thing though,
When I read her any parts of the Bible, she immediately reminds me that she believes its man made, so telling her it was Jesus who sent the Holy Spirit who inspired the writings because thats whats in the Bible…
I’m not frustrated because I love the challenge, but I may need to stop and learn more myself.
Click to expand...
If she believes the bible was “man-made” then what is her proof that there ever really was a Jesus? Somewhere along the line she is going to have to trust somebody.

Thal59
 
Since she rejects the authority of Scripture, it seems to me you have to “go back” a little further in logic. Her humanism/relativism is really common today, since it makes any and everything “ok”. Logically, I think you need to get her to realize that there are absolute truths out there, and from that analysis she may come to recognize the Truth. Reletivist are comfortable in the idea that there really is no objective reality, no “one way”. In essence, everything is by convention. If we all agree that something is “immoral” for societal purposes, then it is so. This argument ignores Natural Law, and breaks down under scrutiny and reductio ad absurdum argument (if we all agreed that it was ok to kill everyone over 60, would that be right?). In short, your mission is to open her eyes to the fact that there is a real world out there, independent of our observation of it, and part of the real world is God. If there really is a God, then that Being is one way and not many ways - right? I think this line of reasoning may break throuh to her, by the mercy of God.
 
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JGravel:
Thanks, Wow! 👍
One thing though,
When I read her any parts of the Bible, she immediately reminds me that she believes its man made, so telling her it was Jesus who sent the Holy Spirit who inspired the writings because thats whats in the Bible…
I’m not frustrated because I love the challenge, but I may need to stop and learn more myself.
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Emphasis added.

Therein lies the problem. If she doesn’t believe the Bible is the Word of God, there can be no further “work” done on/with her.

Ask her, “If the Bible isn’t the Word of God, then what is it?”

She cannot possibly reply, “I believe it’s man-made but also the Word of God”. We Christians believe it was written by man, but inspired by the Holy Spirit. It doesn’t appear she accepts this. You say that when you try to give her Scripture, she rejects it because it was “man made”. No Christian would ever say that.

So in conclusion, she must accept that the Bible is the Word of God, or else you really can’t have a meaningful discussion with her.
 
As a helper to get your friend to understand the basic dogma that Scripture is the Inspired Word of God, you might refer her to this (which was brought up in another thread coincidentally)

Proving Inspriation
 
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Thal59:
If she believes the bible was “man-made” then what is her proof that there ever really was a Jesus? Somewhere along the line she is going to have to trust somebody.

Thal59
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She told me that Jesus was just a swell guy. Please pray for her!
 
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Thal59:
If she believes the bible was “man-made” then what is her proof that there ever really was a Jesus? Somewhere along the line she is going to have to trust somebody.

Thal59
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Peace.

Without knowing it, this sentence truly is brilliant.

Visit this thread: How Do Protestants Know Which Canon to Use?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=103988

Reads posts # 43-44. The poster, LazerLike, addresses the leap of faith" as well as different approaches of Catholics and Protestants to the Bible.

Peace.
 
The daebate with my friend continues…
This is not so much for the sake of all you giving me help in the daebate, which is great, but it is also to show how disturbing it is to see satan influence people in very small nudges untill they are so far gone they can’t seem to consider any Truths.

The point of view she seems to take is a protest one at first, but in reality she takes on every point of view. (Toward the end)

OK, Now time for examples of discrepancies in how the Bible and it’s words differ from person to person:
  1. Catholics say that women can not hold membership in the Church as Priests- (right)?
Many other Christian denominations believe the following (yes this is an article I found):

It has always been a strange doctrine that will allow women to go to foreign mission fields and teach heathen men, but will not allow the “heathen” men at home to be taught by the same women! It makes absolutely no sense to think that a female who is learned in the Scriptures cannot teach a male who is unlearned. Additionally, it is acceptable for many women to teach Sunday School to children, and for mothers to teach their sons. Where do we draw the line and say to the women that can no longer teach a male once they reach a certain age? This may seem like a ridiculous scenario, yet there are those in the church who teach along these lines.

Those that are dogmatic in excluding women from the ministries of God usually are not walking in the Spirit, as they see women after the flesh (viewing her sex), not after the Spirit (seeing her heart and calling). The Lord admonishes us in His Word that we are not to look at one another with regard to our sex, race, class or culture, but rather we are to see one another through spiritual eyes.

“Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation: To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God” (2 Corinthians 5:16-20).

God wants to use any person who will yield to His Spirit, regardless of that person’s sex or capabilities. Those who are a new creature in Christ have His capabilities.

Our problem is that we must see there are rules for the fleshly, or earthly man, and there are rules for the spiritual man. Then, we must discern when to apply the appropriate Scripture. We are admonished in 2 Timothy 2:15 to “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

2nd example has to do with wearing jewelry, tattoos, and piercings. The Bible clearly states (or appears to state) that we’re not suppose to be doing these things to our bodies. These sorts of adornments were considered witchcraft. How many women today go to Church on Sundays wearing jewelry and piercings? Probably the majority.

Leviticus 19:28 which says, “Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.”

These are just 2 of the MANY examples I can point out of Bible “lost in translations”. To wrap up this little session, my point is, I believe in the Bible, but how can we possibly see it as saying only one thing? It’s a matter of whose eyes your born with - if I’m Lutheran, I’ll read the Bible differently, and Hindu, and Muslim, and Baptist, etc. etc. You obviously read the Bible “the Catholic” way- I’m not saying this is right nor wrong. I guess I want to know why you think you are right.
 
Woah, that is really bad. The fact is that God meant what He meant when He wrote it. He didn’t mean different things for different people. That is why Peter writes (1 Peter 1:20) that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of private interpretation because every word of it came from God. Now some folks will say that this only applies to prophecy, which I think is a misunderstanding because all prophecy means is a message from God, it doesn’t refer only to predicting the future, so really all of the Bible is prophecy, In either case, however, the point stands. The point is with the second half of that - that God spoke what He did. The Bible is God’s word, and it means what He said.

This would be like if I picked up a law that my town passed and tried to say that it means different things for different people. It wouldn’t. It would mean what the legislators who wrote it meant. God is God. He is only one God. He is truth. He is only one truth. To say that the Bible means different things to different people is very very close to saying that there is more than one God.
 
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JGravel:
My friend, K, grew up Protestant, went to a Catholic College but now feels that she is a “free spirit” who chooses different things from different religions that she feels is right. She actually doesn’t believe in any organized religion. we have had an on going debate and I have answered alot of her questions but I obviously can’t get through because she asks similar questions over and over.
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Peace

She sounds rather like me awhile back…

Challenge her to pick the ‘truths’ she says she has found in other religions, put them all together, then compare them with TRUE Church teachings (What I mean is CCC, Canon Law, Etc…not website info or public opinion type things) - if she has not already done so. Where they conflict - research. If she is truly seeking the Faith/Truth - she will go the way of many before her…into the arms of the Church.

I guess what I’m saying is challenge her to play devil’s advocate…start from the assumption that the Church is the Truth…make everything else disprove it - God will do the rest. Make her do the work, and use you as a reference. Saves you time and energy - besides - she needs to understand these things for herself anyway.

Pax et Veritas

John
 
Please pray for your fiend greatly! I have read over your posts on her and have a strong sense she is being demonically influenced. The fact that you say her life is emotionally unstable and she can’t hold to your conversations are points to be concerned with. But her blantant mockery of the faith is what is drawing the eye closer.

For her to think she can pick and choose is to say she is her own entity and she controls her life (and soul). The jumping around to different faiths, even non-Christian ones and say they are all right. The Catholic Church is the full depository of faith, so to be in line with the RCC then you have the full truth at your disposal. God will judge each person on their ability to know and learn the true faith. A born and raised Protestant who never looked beyond their hymn book will be judge according to his own abilities by God’s standards. A person who knows the RCC and then turns their back on it, chooses to move to something easier or more comfortable, has turned their back on God! They will be judged accordingly.

Now, demonic influence can cause so much chaos in a person’s life that they can not see straight. They need prayers! They need God’s protection and guidance to lead them back home.

With the demonic comes the ability to twist words around and start to make others question their own faith if theirs is not strong!

Now, I am not saying she is possessed, just that I think she is being influenced. For more information on this, please talk to your priest!

Pray! Pray! Pray!

P.S. I come and go on these boards so do not be offended if I do not respond quickly to comments or PMs.
 
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kp1:
Please pray for your fiend greatly! I have read over your posts on her and have a strong sense she is being demonically influenced. The fact that you say her life is emotionally unstable and she can’t hold to your conversations are points to be concerned with. But her blantant mockery of the faith is what is drawing the eye closer.

For her to think she can pick and choose is to say she is her own entity and she controls her life (and soul). The jumping around to different faiths, even non-Christian ones and say they are all right. The Catholic Church is the full depository of faith, so to be in line with the RCC then you have the full truth at your disposal. God will judge each person on their ability to know and learn the true faith. A born and raised Protestant who never looked beyond their hymn book will be judge according to his own abilities by God’s standards. A person who knows the RCC and then turns their back on it, chooses to move to something easier or more comfortable, has turned their back on God! They will be judged accordingly.

Now, demonic influence can cause so much chaos in a person’s life that they can not see straight. They need prayers! They need God’s protection and guidance to lead them back home.

With the demonic comes the ability to twist words around and start to make others question their own faith if theirs is not strong!

Now, I am not saying she is possessed, just that I think she is being influenced. For more information on this, please talk to your priest!

Pray! Pray! Pray!

P.S. I come and go on these boards so do not be offended if I do not respond quickly to comments or PMs.
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It’s funny that you point that out because I told her pretty much the same thing only in a manner which wouldn’t hurt her. I used a 3rd party aproach. Haven’t heard back from her yet.
 
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