New GIRM Rules

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Please help me understand about the new GIRM rules. Our parish has recently adopted the rule at Holy Communion that says you cannot kneel after the Fraction Rite (during…this is Jesus who takes away the sins of the world) and after Holy Communion. We are told we must stand or sit (if unable to stand). They say it is because we should sing and be community. How can I just stand in the presence of the Jesus who takes away my sins? I also want to spend quiet, reverent time with my Lord after Holy Communion so He can speak to me and I to Him. Is this mandatory? Are ALL churches doing this?
 
Hi,

The best place to get an answer to your particular situation is from your Pastor

Was there any meeting or bulletin?

GIRM
  1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.
They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53
With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
If you do approach your Pastor just be very respectful and ask him to please explain why you cannot kneel after Communion. Accept his response, and pray on it before you question it further.

SuZ
 
Our bishop has asked all the priests and deacons to let people know about those changes last weekend and are asking us to do what has been mandated in the Roman Missal changes. When I explained to him that I could not for reasons previously mentioned, I also told him my family who have always sat in the front row will now move to the choir loft so we will not disturb the mass itself. Is this being done everywhere or just our diocese?
 
The new GIRM rules should have been put into effect last June—The most recent changes in procedure are from RS, which are being implimented during Advent, in many Parishes. I have seen that standing after Communion directive, but I can’t recall where—must be an insert or bulletin, I don’t see it in the actual GIRM.

My Parish has not implimented that standing after Communion directive. I haven’t seen it in other local Parishes. This year I have at also attended Mass in St Maarten and Peoria, and I have not seen it.

SuZ
 
Little Irish:
Please help me understand about the new GIRM rules. Our parish has recently adopted the rule at Holy Communion that says you cannot kneel after the Fraction Rite (during…this is Jesus who takes away the sins of the world) and after Holy Communion. We are told we must stand or sit (if unable to stand). They say it is because we should sing and be community. How can I just stand in the presence of the Jesus who takes away my sins? I also want to spend quiet, reverent time with my Lord after Holy Communion so He can speak to me and I to Him. Is this mandatory? Are ALL churches doing this?
It is the local Bishop who determins the posture after the Our Father to the distribution of Communion. Follow his instruction.

The Bishops and Rome have determined that no posture is to be dictated for after Holy Communion. You may at your choice stand, sit **or kneel **after returning to your seat until after the distribution of Communion is complete.

See usccb.org/liturgy/innews/703.htm
 
Br. Rich SFO:
It is the local Bishop who determins the posture after the Our Father to the distribution of Communion. Follow his instruction.

The Bishops and Rome have determined that no posture is to be dictated for after Holy Communion. You may at your choice stand, sit **or kneel **after returning to your seat until after the distribution of Communion is complete.

See usccb.org/liturgy/innews/703.htm
That’s perfect advice. Unfortunately some confused individuals (including bishops, priests and deacons) are confused about what the Church directs after Communion.

I have had a nun actually pull on my arm to get me to stand (I was kneeling) after Communion and the bishop was the celebrant at the Mass. Go figure…
 
Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53 With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
why does the church allow the bishop to decide if we are to kneel after the agnus dei or not? why then but not after communion? i don’t get it. 90% of churches i go to kneel after the agnus dei, then you go to that one diocese who doesn’t and it seems weird. what’s the point of non-uniformity in this manner?
 
I agree that there is true lack of uniformity as to how the new GIRM and RS are being implemented. The sitting/kneeling/standing issue at Communion is a good example.

My parish (and I assume the entire Archdiocese of Detroit) has directed that people should stand during Communion. I have seen people become confused and flustered when they return to their pews after receiving, kneel down, and then look around them at everyone who is standing. They the pop back up, then decide they would rather kneel, and pop back down. It looks odd from my vantage point (in front with the choir).

This happens with infrequent Mass attendees (shame on them!), but it also happens with visitors from other dioceses.

And I thought the new GIRM and RS were intended, at least in part, to bring uniformity to the manner in which Mass is celebrated!

'thann
 
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thann:
And I thought the new GIRM and RS were intended, at least in part, to bring uniformity to the manner in which Mass is celebrated!

'thann
They can only bring uniformity if they are coupled with bishops who value uniformity over liturgical tinkering.
 
I’m getting sick with all these new Girms. Sorry, it has to be said atleast once for every Girm related topic. It’s an unwritten rule.

Seriously though, I wish we had more authoritative postures and such for Mass. Rather than suggestions and variances between diocese and even parish-to-parish.
 
SHEESH!

Is this the sillyest thing you have ever read???

I am fully ready to go back to the “Spirit of Vatican II”!
I have seen far too many Pharisees for one lifetime.
At least, after Vatican II, we were searching for the ancient Church and what the deeper meaning was. I am so fed up wth the increased legalism, I can hardly stand it.

From now on, because I have studied some about Prayer Postures, I will stand. That is the oldest form and if I feel like lifting my hands to the Lord, I will. I see nothing particularly holier about kneeling, I do not see that it is any way humblier, and it became popular because people knelt before a human ruler. The Jews stood, lifting holy hands up to the Lord and I am sure, in most cases, Jesus and the Apostles did as well. I would guess, in the Garden, Jesus may have been kneeling at times but would think he was face down on the ground.

I am so tired of this GIRM discussion, I can see why so many folks go off looking for simpler worship. I was converted to the Catholic Church in 1955 as an adult, and I assure you, Pre Vatican II Catholics were not nearly as SILLY as some of the ones I see today.

I would be interested to know what all this has to do with your salvation???
 
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robertaf:
SHEESH!

Is this the sillyest thing you have ever read???

I am fully ready to go back to the “Spirit of Vatican II”!
I have seen far too many Pharisees for one lifetime.
At least, after Vatican II, we were searching for the ancient Church and what the deeper meaning was. I am so fed up wth the increased legalism, I can hardly stand it.

From now on, because I have studied some about Prayer Postures, I will stand. That is the oldest form and if I feel like lifting my hands to the Lord, I will. I see nothing particularly holier about kneeling, I do not see that it is any way humblier, and it became popular because people knelt before a human ruler. The Jews stood, lifting holy hands up to the Lord and I am sure, in most cases, Jesus and the Apostles did as well. I would guess, in the Garden, Jesus may have been kneeling at times but would think he was face down on the ground.

I am so tired of this GIRM discussion, I can see why so many folks go off looking for simpler worship. I was converted to the Catholic Church in 1955 as an adult, and I assure you, Pre Vatican II Catholics were not nearly as SILLY as some of the ones I see today.

I would be interested to know what all this has to do with your salvation???
The “I’ll do it my way” approach is not what the Scriptures and Sacred Tradition tell us St. Paul and the others taught. Salvation if attained is attained HIS way only.
 
OK

“My Way” , was the right way a short time ago. Just think about what we have gone through since Vatican II. I have watched it.
I saw open rebellion from Priests and Religious afterwards. Many of these folks left without the blessings of Holy Mother Church and many did it the right way. In any event, vows were broken because they thought their will was above the will of Vatican II. As a convert, I had a very hard time with the changes, as well. I finally realized that obedience was what was needed, even blind obedience. So I obeyed, and finally received the teachings of the Church. I have continued, have been certified, re- certified and re-re-certified as a teacher. I have spent over 30 years at this. I have taught every age group, prepared folks for most of the Sacraments and have been blessed to participate in several ministries. I was one of a group of people selected to be trained to serve Mass with the Holy Father during his visit to Los Angeles.

My way??? No!
We are talking about areas in the rules that folks decide for themselves. The things the Church has not ruled on.
An example is holding hands during the Our Father. Because nothing is said, it leaves it open for people to decide, that it is a negative rule. So far, many Bishops do not agree with that premise.

If I am wrong, I put myself in God’s mercy. I am glad it is He, not me, who’s mercy will deal with those I see as Pharisees. I am glad it is He and not others who will pass judgement on whether I go to Heaven or Hell for standing with hands lifted up or kneeling during parts of the Mass. I am so very happy judgement rests in His hands for our Salvation. I would pray his suffering and dying for us didn’t depend on Prayer posture.

Sorry, I still see this as extremely silly! And very sad.
 
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robertaf:
OK

“My Way” , was the right way a short time ago. Just think about what we have gone through since Vatican II. I have watched it.
I saw open rebellion from Priests and Religious afterwards. Many of these folks left without the blessings of Holy Mother Church and many did it the right way. In any event, vows were broken because they thought their will was above the will of Vatican II. As a convert, I had a very hard time with the changes, as well. I finally realized that obedience was what was needed, even blind obedience. So I obeyed, and finally received the teachings of the Church. I have continued, have been certified, re- certified and re-re-certified as a teacher. I have spent over 30 years at this. I have taught every age group, prepared folks for most of the Sacraments and have been blessed to participate in several ministries. I was one of a group of people selected to be trained to serve Mass with the Holy Father during his visit to Los Angeles.

My way??? No!
We are talking about areas in the rules that folks decide for themselves. The things the Church has not ruled on.
An example is holding hands during the Our Father. Because nothing is said, it leaves it open for people to decide, that it is a negative rule. So far, many Bishops do not agree with that premise.

If I am wrong, I put myself in God’s mercy. I am glad it is He, not me, who’s mercy will deal with those I see as Pharisees. I am glad it is He and not others who will pass judgement on whether I go to Heaven or Hell for standing with hands lifted up or kneeling during parts of the Mass. I am so very happy judgement rests in His hands for our Salvation. I would pray his suffering and dying for us didn’t depend on Prayer posture.

Sorry, I still see this as extremely silly! And very sad.
The sorry state of the Church in the USA today can be most directly tied to abysmal catechectics in this country over the past 35 years.

Fr. Mitch Pacwa SJ has a nice presentation on this exact topic. After V2 we were all so focused on vilifying the Baltimore Catechism that we didn’t notice that our children were not learning about the faith, but they knew all the lyrics to Kumbaya.

In some (arch)dioceses the faithful are not introduced to the GIRM and RS, yet they are saddled with garbage like Gather Together Faithfully.

This dearth of learning has taken a toll on the Church in the USA that is now only beginning to be addressed and changed.
 
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robertaf:
SHEESH!

Is this the sillyest thing you have ever read???

I am fully ready to go back to the “Spirit of Vatican II”!
I have seen far too many Pharisees for one lifetime.
At least, after Vatican II, we were searching for the ancient Church and what the deeper meaning was. I am so fed up wth the increased legalism, I can hardly stand it.
It’s interesting that we rarely hear the time-worn and innacurate excuse of “the spirit of Vatican II.” Even the biggest abusers don’tuse it any longer, although I am hearing more and more that the GIRM and RS are merely “guidelines” – to be followed or tossed aside at the whime of the individual. Utter hubris.
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robertaf:
From now on, because I have studied some about Prayer Postures, I will stand. That is the oldest form and if I feel like lifting my hands to the Lord, I will. I see nothing particularly holier about kneeling, I do not see that it is any way humblier, and it became popular because people knelt before a human ruler. The Jews stood, lifting holy hands up to the Lord and I am sure, in most cases, Jesus and the Apostles did as well. I would guess, in the Garden, Jesus may have been kneeling at times but would think he was face down on the ground.
It’s best to follow what the Church actually directs, rather than your own personal whims.
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robertaf:
I am so tired of this GIRM discussion, I can see why so many folks go off looking for simpler worship. I was converted to the Catholic Church in 1955 as an adult, and I assure you, Pre Vatican II Catholics were not nearly as SILLY as some of the ones I see today.
I’m am gonna guess that you are feeling antagonized because liturgical abuse is being tolerated less and less. Compare 1985 to today. Huge difference – for the better, and it continues to head in the right direction.
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robertaf:
I would be interested to know what all this has to do with your salvation???
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the source and summit of our faith here on Earth. In fact it’s Heaven on Earth. It’s the most important thing we do on Earth. Why oh why would we let abusive individuals negatively impact this most sublime gift from God?

I have no interest in anything that you do that does not effect me. None. Abuse the Mass and you had better be ready for a fight. A harsh fight.
 
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Crusader:
Church actually directs
, rather than your own personal whims.QUOTE]

This goes for all points in the discussion. People who wish to keep pre-VII procedures and postures are also contributing to the confusion. Just because something is allowed, does not mean it is the best option.

SuZ
 
Regarding posture after communion.

It is not unusual for these documents to be poorly worded or poorly translated and then dubiums are required for clarificaiton. Unless the question becomes a topic for discussion on a forum such as this, lay persons and even priests may not be immediately aware of the dubium or the response. The Bishops Office of Worship or Liturgy, should however be on top of these things and know about it. Then the Bishop should so inform the priests and they should in turn advise the laypeople if they have been formerly misinstructed.

(in an Ideal world of course LOL).

POSTURE AFTER COMMUNION

The new GIRM provides that the faithful should “sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed” (43).

Regarding sitting or kneeling during the silence after Communion, some interpreted this as meaning that the faithful should stand until the last communicant had received Communion, which was contrary to the traditional practice of the faithful assuming their preferred postures immediately upon returning to the pews.

A controversy ensued, in which Francis Cardinal George, chairman of the Bishops’ Committee on Liturgy, queried the CDWDS: “In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass.** Is it the intention of the [new Roman Missal] to forbid this practice**?”

The response was as follows: “Negative, et ad mentem [No, and for this reason]. The mens [reason] is that the prescription of [GIRM] no. 43 is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free” (responsum of Francis Cardinal Arinze, June 5, 2003 [Prot. 855/03/L], as published in the July 2003 BCL newsletter).
 
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MeaCulpa:
Would that include Communion in the Hand?.
Absolutely, I believe this is the better option for many reasons, not the least of which being many of the tongues and lips cannot keep from moistening the fingers of the distributor, which causes the next host to stick and there is a real danger it will be dropped.

SuZ
 
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MeaCulpa:
Would that include Communion in the Hand?.
I would say so however Rome has stated that receiving Holy Communion in the hand is the Bishops decision. No one may be denied Communion because they wish to receive directly into their mouth. I could see a Bishp saying no Holy Communion in the hand at this or that parish if there is a clear danger that certain people would “pocket” the Host.
 
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