No one in heaven until judgement day

[emom]

When people die and they are in purgatory, do they go into heaven after they serve their “time”? Or are they all to stay there into the day of judgement? I always thought that you can be in heaven depending on how you live your life and after you spend time in being perfected. A bible christian said that no one can be in heaven into the day of judgement and wanted me to back up my beliefs in the scripture.

As to the saints, I being accused of praying to the dead and bring evil upon my self even if it is just asking to pray to the saints to ask Jesus for my prayers requests.

 

[thistle]

emom:

When people die and they are in purgatory, do they go into heaven after they serve their “time”? Or are they all to stay there into the day of judgement? I always thought that you can be in heaven depending on how you live your life and after you spend time in being perfected. A bible christian said that no one can be in heaven into the day of judgement and wanted me to back up my beliefs in the scripture.

As to the saints, I being accused of praying to the dead and bring evil upon my self even if it is just asking to pray to the saints to ask Jesus for my prayers requests.

This Bible Christian has made the assertion that nobody is in Heaven. It is up to him/her to give you the source of his belief and not for you in the first place to prove him wrong. Ask him/her where in Scripture it says nobody goes to Heaven.

 

[pianoplayingmom]

Jesus tells the thief hanging on a cross next to Him in Luke 23:43 “Today you will be with me in Paradise.” Enough said.

 

[levi86]

pianoplayingmom:

Jesus tells the thief hanging on a cross next to Him in Luke 23:43 “Today you will be with me in Paradise.” Enough said.

Jesus himself wasn’t in heaven for another three days.

 

[emom]

Just were it says in even the apostles creed that Jesus will come to judge the living and the dead. He takes that as that no one is in heaven.

 

[Seven]

He will judge the living and the dead that have not yet been judged?

 

[pianoplayingmom]

levi86:

Jesus himself wasn’t in heaven for another three days.

That is not quite accurate. Jesus, being part of the Trinity and fully God, was and is everywhere, including heaven. Yet, we ask, how could that be if He was fully human and here physically on earth at the time? Quite the conundrum for our little brains…or is it?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Phil 1

Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, 19for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance. 20I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two:** I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;** 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me.

 

[anawim]

emom:

When people die and they are in purgatory, do they go into heaven after they serve their “time”? Or are they all to stay there into the day of judgement? I always thought that you can be in heaven depending on how you live your life and after you spend time in being perfected. A bible christian said that no one can be in heaven into the day of judgement and wanted me to back up my beliefs in the scripture.

It’s important to remember that there is no time in eternity. There may be some kind of time after the judgement when there is a “new heaven and a new earth”, but not for right now.

As to the saints, I being accused of praying to the dead and bring evil upon my self even if it is just asking to pray to the saints to ask Jesus for my prayers requests.

What makes him think that they are dead? Those who are with Christ are alive. They are also partakers of His divine nature, and have whatever powers Jesus wishes to share. And He is not going to be stingy with His gifts!

 

[levi86]

pianoplayingmom:

That is not quite accurate. Jesus, being part of the Trinity and fully God, was and is everywhere, including heaven. Yet, we ask, how could that be if He was fully human and here physically on earth at the time? Quite the conundrum for our little brains…or is it?

That could be one way of looking at it, however I think that interpretation is somewhat of a stretch, or maybe I just cant comprehend the true meaning due to my “little brain” In any case there are many more verses that deal with the issue.

Eccl 12:5-7
Because man goes to his lasting home, and mourners go about the streets; Before the silver cord is snapped and the golden bowl is broken, And the pitcher is shattered at the spring, and the broken pulley falls into the well, And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath returns to God who gave it.

2 Cor 5: 6-8
So we are always courageous, although we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord.

1 Thess 5:10
(Jesus) died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live together with him.

Phil 1:21-23
For to me life is Christ, and death is gain. If I go on living in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. And I do not know which I shall choose. I am caught between the two. I long to depart this life and be with Christ, (for) that is far better.

2 Cor 5:1
For we know that if our earthly dwelling, a tent, should be destroyed, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal in heaven.

2 Cor 5:4
For while we are in this tent we groan and are weighed down, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

God bless
Levi

 

[davethecatholic]

emom:

When people die and they are in purgatory, do they go into heaven after they serve their “time”? Or are they all to stay there into the day of judgement? I always thought that you can be in heaven depending on how you live your life and after you spend time in being perfected. A bible christian said that no one can be in heaven into the day of judgement and wanted me to back up my beliefs in the scripture.

Catholics should use Scripture & Tradition to defend against “bible-only Christians”. Remember those in “Limbus Patrum” or “Abraham’s Bosom” who were freed at the time of the Ascension. Although there is no single and precisely direct scriptural verse to cover such a question, it can be pieced together from the idea of “Abraham’s Bosom” (where the just were “stationed” until the Ascension) which we find in Luke 16: 22-23. We also know from Ephesians 4 and 1 Peter 3: 19-20 that Christ descended to “preach to the spirits that were in prison”.

If you put these two ideas together with the promise of the Messiah from the OT as we see from Numbers 24:17, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 35:4, Isaiah 42: 1-2,11-12, etc…you will have your answer. It is quite well explained in the Catholic Encyclopedia on the link below.

Again, there is no single and precisely direct verse, but Scripture & Tradition together make the point quite clear.

newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

 

[Fidelis]

emom:

When people die and they are in purgatory, do they go into heaven after they serve their “time”? Or are they all to stay there into the day of judgement? I always thought that you can be in heaven depending on how you live your life and after you spend time in being perfected. A bible christian said that no one can be in heaven into the day of judgement and wanted me to back up my beliefs in the scripture.

As to the saints, I being accused of praying to the dead and bring evil upon my self even if it is just asking to pray to the saints to ask Jesus for my prayers requests.

Ask him who he thinks all those people in the Book of Revelation were and what the heck they were doing up there in heaven (Chapter four and following, especially Chapter 7)? Looks like a pretty large and lively bunch to me!

 

[Orionthehunter]

I think that clarity on this issue is found when you reflect on the concept of a God that transcends time and space and the concept of infinite eternity. Augustine’s discussion in “Confessions” is IMHO as good a discussion as I’ve read.

Or reflect on the concept of the “Mass is never-ending” or the “Mass is timeless.”

After you do this, you will see that this discussion is much ado about nothing. Time and Space cease to be limits or issues after death.

While I think the Levi’s scripture references were meant to “prove” the point that the OP was trying to make or disprove the point of the “Bible Christian” (I have no idea what that means), I think they take on greater meaning in light of the reflection on God transcending time.

 

[levi86]

Orionthehunter:

While I think the Levi’s scripture references were meant to “prove” the point that the OP was trying to make or disprove the point of the “Bible Christian” (I have no idea what that means), I think they take on greater meaning in light of the reflection on God transcending time.

Sorry I couldn’t quite understand what you were saying here, but yes I was trying to “prove” or reinforce the opinion of the OP (and the RCC).

God bless
Levi

 

[Orionthehunter]

levi86:

Sorry I couldn’t quite understand what you were saying here, but yes I was trying to “prove” or reinforce the opinion of the OP (and the RCC).

God bless
Levi

The simple and generally accepted understanding is that there are saints in heaven “now” while there are people on earth “now” as stated by the OP.

This being said the greater understanding comes from probing the mystery of a God who transcends time and space. Thinking rightly about God is critical to loving and knowing God. My comments are intended to stimulate a greater understanding about “when” judgment takes place is limiting of our God who transcends time. And while the point of the OP is helpful for our limited minds to understand that there are Saints in Heaven “now” and they are actively participating in the “here and now” as the Church Triumphant, it doesn’t contain the fullness of the Reality and Truth regarding the mystery contained in the Teachings regarding God transcending time, the Mass is never ending, and how the Sacrifice of the Mass that happens today in not a “re-enactment” but part of the continuem that occurs beyond the contraints of time.

When one contemplates this mystery, we then come to understand that there are elements of Truth in what the “Bible Christian” is asserting. The point of my posts are to not dismiss out of hand the assertion of hte “Bible Christian” as it might hinder one’s pursuit of understanding the transcendence of God. It also affects a deep understanding of the mystery of the linkage of all Saints (past, present and future) in the Battle for Good and against Evil.

This being said, the “Bible Christian’s” understanding is leading this person to reach a wrong conclusion (that there are no Saints from this world “now” in Heaven actively interceding in the “here and now”).

Levi, I’m reading my post and not being a deep theologian so I know this doesn’t provide the clarity that the issue deserves. For this reason, if anyone is confused (a confusion that is related to my limitations to describe this Teaching and not the Teaching itself) and desiring to delve deeper into the Mystery of the Transcendance of God, I urge you to probe further. As I said earlier, St. Augustine’s discussion of this in Confessions has been very helpful to me but I’m sure there are other sources as well. A book by Tozer entitled “Knowledge of the Holy” also has a chapter on this mystery. While Tozer is not a Catholic theologian but was a early 20th Century Billy Graham, this book has been used in Catholic theology circles as a primer to grasp concepts such as a God that is all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, etc. (what I refer to as the “Alls and Omnis”). In this book, nearly all of the theologian’s cited by Tozer are Catholic Saints respected on these matters.

 

[levi86]

Orionthehunter:

The simple and generally accepted understanding is that there are saints in heaven “now” while there are people on earth “now” as stated by the OP.

This being said the greater understanding comes from probing the mystery of a God who transcends time and space. Thinking rightly about God is critical to loving and knowing God. My comments are intended to stimulate a greater understanding about “when” judgment takes place is limiting of our God who transcends time. And while the point of the OP is helpful for our limited minds to understand that there are Saints in Heaven “now” and they are actively participating in the “here and now” as the Church Triumphant, it doesn’t contain the fullness of the Reality and Truth regarding the mystery contained in the Teachings regarding God transcending time, the Mass is never ending, and how the Sacrifice of the Mass that happens today in not a “re-enactment” but part of the continuem that occurs beyond the contraints of time.

When one contemplates this mystery, we then come to understand that there are elements of Truth in what the “Bible Christian” is asserting. The point of my posts are to not dismiss out of hand the assertion of hte “Bible Christian” as it might hinder one’s pursuit of understanding the transcendence of God. It also affects a deep understanding of the mystery of the linkage of all Saints (past, present and future) in the Battle for Good and against Evil.

This being said, the “Bible Christian’s” understanding is leading this person to reach a wrong conclusion (that there are no Saints from this world “now” in Heaven actively interceding in the “here and now”).

Levi, I’m reading my post and not being a deep theologian so I know this doesn’t provide the clarity that the issue deserves. For this reason, if anyone is confused (a confusion that is related to my limitations to describe this Teaching and not the Teaching itself) and desiring to delve deeper into the Mystery of the Transcendance of God, I urge you to probe further. As I said earlier, St. Augustine’s discussion of this in Confessions has been very helpful to me but I’m sure there are other sources as well. A book by Tozer entitled “Knowledge of the Holy” also has a chapter on this mystery. While Tozer is not a Catholic theologian but was a early 20th Century Billy Graham, this book has been used in Catholic theology circles as a primer to grasp concepts such as a God that is all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, etc. (what I refer to as the “Alls and Omnis”). In this book, nearly all of the theologian’s cited by Tozer are Catholic Saints respected on these matters.

Ah, I see what you’re saying. I could never quite get my head around this aspect of the faith; then again I suppose that’s why it’s called a mystery

God bless
Levi

 

[Orionthehunter]

levi86:

Ah, I see what you’re saying. I could never quite get my head around this aspect of the faith; then again I suppose that’s why it’s called a mystery

God bless
Levi

Wow. I’m surprised that my post had the clarity I intended. Another miracle of the Holy Spirit!

If I can, I’d like to make another point. This speaks to the dangers of personal interpretation of Scripture. This “Bible Christian” is relying on a particular verse to reach a conclusion that leads one to misunderstand God. It is these misunderstandings that are at the heart of the disunity of the Body of Christ and so many of the ills that befall us in this life. And in this context, when we encounter opportunities to evangelize the Truth to our separated brethren, we can see that it isn’t the power of our arguments that will lead them home but only by the workings of the Holy Spirit. This then leads to an understanding that St. Francis’ credo “Always preach the Gospel. Only use words if necessary.” is often most appropriate.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

sleep mode

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello All,

Jesus, before his death and ressurection, assures us that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not dead waiting to rise but alive in heaven. We know that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob enter into heaven through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

Those in spiritual life exist outside of physical time.
NAB MAR 12:18

Then some **Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection **came to him with a question …\…12:24 Jesus said: “You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God. When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob’? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken.” **NAB LUK 20:37 **

Moses in the passage about the bush showed that the dead rise again when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. All are alive for him.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Steven Merten:

Hello All,

Jesus, before his death and ressurection, assures us that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not dead waiting to rise but alive in heaven. We know that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob enter into heaven through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

Those in spiritual life exist outside of physical time.
NAB MAR 12:18

Then some Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection came to him with a question …\…12:24 Jesus said: “You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God. When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob’? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken.” **NAB LUK 20:37 **

Moses in the passage about the bush showed that the dead rise again when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. All are alive for him.

Great contribution as it gives a glimpse of the mystery of God transcending time.

Note: While Christ is on earth, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ARE in Heaven. They got there because of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross which had not “YET” happened).

When we prayfully reflect on the Alls and Omnis of God, we get a glimpse of His majesty and our humbleness and makes faith so much more rich and fulfilling than a “sola scriptura” method of only seeing be Bible as a “guide to how to live life.”