"one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church"

[GKC]

In reading the Anglican-Lutheran Dialogue, I assume that the obstacle for further ecumenical work among Anglicans and Catholics has to do with the following:

Interesting that Lutherans do not see it as a problem; thus full communion with Anglicans.

The first para accurately reflects the varied attitudes amongst Anglicans toward the Articles, which have no binding authority on any Anglicans save (technically) clergy of the Church of England.

The irrelevance of the ARCIC discussions relates directly to the female ordination issues, and other outre Anglican innovations of the past 30 years, or so.

The ELCA shares a number of such positions with TEC. Hence, another good fit; nihil obstat.

GKC

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The first para accurately reflects the varied attitudes amongst Anglicans toward the Articles, which have no binding authority on any Anglicans save (technically) clergy of the Church of England.

The irrelevance of the ARCIC discussions relates directly to the female ordination issues, and other outre Anglican innovations of the past 30 years, or so.

The ELCA shares a number of such positions with TEC. Hence, another good fit; nihil obstat.

GKC

Could an Anglican prescribe to the Augsburg Confession? An Episcopal bishop “lays hands” at a Lutheran ordination/ consecration after the candidate vows this:

P. The Church in which you are to be ordained confesses that the Holy Scriptures are the Word of God and are the norm of its faith and life. We accept, teach, and confess the Apostles’, the Nicene, and the Athanasian Creeds. We also acknowledge the Lutheran Confessions as true witnesses and faithful expositions of the Holy Scriptures. Will you therefore preach and teach in accordance with the Holy Scriptures and these creeds and confessions?

R. I will, and I ask God to help me.
liturgybytlw.com/OccPrs/Ordin.html

 

[JonNC]

It always comes down to this!

It often does, even between our synods. Ordination of women is a mid-twentieth century innovation, EC, that the Catholic and Orthodox churches, as well as confessional (conservative) Lutheran synods and traditional Anglicans will not except. That can’t be “ecumenized” away.

Jon

 

[GaryTaylor]

“ecumenized” away?

 

[GKC]

Could an Anglican prescribe to the Augsburg Confession? An Episcopal bishop “lays hands” at a Lutheran ordination/ consecration after the candidate vows this:

It would be an increasingly dubious question whether an Episcopal bishop put hands on someone, or an Episcopal “bishop” did. The validity of episcopal lines in TEC is disappearing. Attempts at female ordinations are making Apostolicae Curae an increasingly prescient document, 118 years after the fact. As I have said before.

With the very latest of modifications, updates, improvements to their practices, and other such upgrades, ELCA and TEC are the very models of of modern major liberal contemporary protestant ecclesiastical communities, with all that implies. Hence, a good fit, one with another. If you think the gracious Katherine’s hands convey anything sacramental …well, there you are.

GKC

 

[GKC]

It often does, even between our synods. Ordination of women is a mid-twentieth century innovation, EC, that the Catholic and Orthodox churches, as well as confessional (conservative) Lutheran synods and traditional Anglicans will not except. That can’t be “ecumenized” away.

Jon

Yep.

GKC

 

[GKC]

“ecumenized” away?

There’s a lot of that going around.

GKC

 

[JHow]

…very models of of modern major liberal contemporary protestant ecclesiastical communities, with all that implies.

Why do I hear echoes of ‘Penzance’ in this line?

I am the very model of a modern major liberal,

I’ve information ecclesiastical and ecumenical…

 

[GKC]

Why do I hear echoes of ‘Penzance’ in this line?

I am the very model of a modern major liberal,

I’ve information ecclesiastical and ecumenical…

I have succeeded. I wasn’t sure.

GKC

 

[Peter_J]

I have succeeded. I wasn’t sure.

GKC

I thought it was unmistakable.

 

[GKC]

I thought it was unmistakable.

I didn’t want to be overly confident. But I thought it had a chance.

GKC

 

[steido01]

Thanks to this thread, I will forever associate ecumenism with monocles and cumberbunds.http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LNp5euZlg...Kwa_ATZyE/s1600/MajorGeneral_Steve-Quint2.jpg

 

[Stilldreamn]

I have succeeded. I wasn’t sure.

GKC

GKC, please forgive my impertinence, but whenever I read your posts your voice in my head sounds like “Eeyore” in “Eeyore’s New Tail.”

(no, I am not wearing a tinfoil hat, I don’t mean “those” voices)

 

[GKC]

GKC, please forgive my impertinence, but whenever I read your posts your voice in my head sounds like “Eeyore” in “Eeyore’s New Tail.”

(no, I am not wearing a tinfoil hat, I don’t mean “those” voices)

I’m pretty good at that, yes. Met Eeyore very early in my life, I did.

No Give and Take. No Exchange of Thought. It gets you nowhere, particularly if the other person’s tail is only just in sight for the second half of the conversation.

I’m also pretty good at being an all around smart alec, and/or world’s greatest authority.

Motley talented, that’s me.

GKC

 

[JonNC]

“ecumenized” away?

You like that, Gary?
Feel free to employ it anytime you want.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Any thoughts on the perspective that catholic Anglicans [Anglo-Catholics] are actually more Lutheran than Anglican?

Is Anglicanism a Variant of Lutheranism?

Even though Henry VII was just a selfish Roman Catholic, basically, men like Cranmer and Ridley and Latimer were deeply imbibing of the Lutheran theology. … Anglicanism is inherently Lutheran.
frstephensmuts.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/is-anglicanism-a-variant-of-lutheranism/

 

[EvangelCatholic]

More discussion of how Anglicans gave Lutherans [at least in north America] episcopacy and how Lutherans gave Anglicans Eucharistic formula.

Anglican-Lutheran dialogue and the catholic vocation
The announcement this week that a pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada (ELCIC) is to become Dean of St. John’s Anglican Cathedral in Winnipeg is an indication of one of the most significant consequences of Anglican ecumenical dialogue - the rapprochement with Lutheranism. In the northern hemisphere, the full communion agreements with Lutheranism entered into by Anglicans in the British Isles, the United States and Canada have healed a Reformation breach.

The Waterloo Declaration - the statement of full communion between the Anglican Church of Canada and ELCIC - caught something of the similarities in the vocation of Lutheranism and Anglicanism in its phrase “we share a common heritage as catholic churches of the Reformation”. The Porvoo Agreement provides a more expansive description:

The faith, worship and spirituality of all our churches are rooted in the tradition of the apostolic Church. We stand in continuity with the Church of the patristic and medieval periods both directly and through the insights of the Reformation period. We each understand our own church to be part of the One, Holy, Catholic Church of Jesus Christ and truly participating in the one apostolic mission of the whole people of God. We share in the liturgical heritage of Western Christianity and also in the Reformation emphases upon justification by faith and upon word and sacrament as means of grace. All this is embodied in our confessional and liturgical documents and is increasingly recognized both as an essential bond between our churches.

At the heart of the Anglican-Lutheran rapprochement has been the rediscovery by Lutheranism of the historic episcopate and the formal acceptance by Anglicanism of Lutheran eucharistic formulations, overcoming the hesitancy expressed in some of Anglicanism’s historic formularies. The Waterloo Declaration noted how in 1997 the ELCIC took “the constitutional steps necessary to understand the installation of bishops as ordination”. As a result:

The Anglican Church of Canada and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada affirm each other’s expression of episcopal ministry as a sign of continuity and unity in apostolic faith. We thus understand that the bishops of both churches are ordained for life service of the Gospel in the pastoral ministry of the historic episcopate.

In terms of eucharistic doctrine, the Porvoo Agreement quite explicitly employed the historic Lutheran terminology:

We believe that the body and blood of Christ are truly present, distributed and received under the forms of bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper.

In light of Hooker’s critique of “the Lutherans’ interpretation” and Article 28’s high Calvinist doctrine of a ‘real feeding’, there can be little doubt that if Anglican-Lutheran dialogue has led to Lutheranism adopting a catholic understanding of the episcopate, it has also led Anglicanism to endorse a more catholic rendering of eucharistic doctrine than has been historically the case.

Here, then, is a sign of how Anglican-Lutheran dialogue is serving a catholic vision and understanding of the Church: overcoming the wounds of the 16th century, restoring the historic episcopate, renewing eucharistic doctrine.

(The picture is of a Lutheran eucharist in Estonia. The Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church is part of the Porvoo Communion.)
catholicityandcovenant.blogspot.com/2011/10/anglican-lutheran-dialogue-and-catholic.html

 

[GKC]

More discussion of how Anglicans gave Lutherans [at least in north America] episcopacy and how Lutherans gave Anglicans Eucharistic formula.

I rejoice in the convergence of two liberal protestant communions understandings of the historic episcopacy and the nature of the Eucharist. Which is meaningful only to the extent that the Anglicans (and, in turn, Lutherans) in question continue to posses the valid episcopacy to convey, which is a dwindling concept, as the black hole of female “bishops” consumes it, wherever that circumstance holds.

Which, eventually will result in a joint communion (of some sort) possessing a proper concept of the Eucharist and no valid orders to provide it: i.e. protestants. Placing you, in Roman eyes precisely where all Anglicism is currently. And, where orthodox Anglo-Catholics (in particular), who, without reference to Lutheran understanding, already affirm the validly confected Eucharist to be the body and blood, soul and divinity, of Christ truly, really, and substantially present, distributed and received under the forms of bread and wine, also see you to be.

Which does not take into consideration whether the attempt to convey the sacrament of order to inappropriate subjects expresses the requisite sacramental intent, facere quod facit Ecclesia. Lots of difference, there.

GKC

 

[benjohnson]

Which does not take into consideration whether the attempt to convey the sacrament of order to inappropriate subjects expresses the requisite sacramental intent, facere quod facit Ecclesia. Lots of difference, there.

GKC

I half expected Pope Bennedict XVI to issue another Papal Bull as extension of Apostolicae Curae to our friends with the simple words: “Sie Anglikaner und Lutheraner warden gewarnt” with the English translation of “I told you so!” being slightly shorter.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I rejoice in the convergence of two liberal protestant communions understandings of the historic episcopacy and the nature of the Eucharist. Which is meaningful only to the extent that the Anglicans (and, in turn, Lutherans) in question continue to posses the valid episcopacy to convey, which is a dwindling concept, as the black hole of female “bishops” consumes it, wherever that circumstance holds.

Which, eventually will result in a joint communion (of some sort) possessing a proper concept of the Eucharist and no valid orders to provide it: i.e. protestants. Placing you, in Roman eyes precisely where all Anglicism is currently. And, where orthodox Anglo-Catholics (in particular), who, without reference to Lutheran understanding, already affirm the validly confected Eucharist to be the body and blood, soul and divinity, of Christ truly, really, and substantially present, distributed and received under the forms of bread and wine, also see you to be.

Which does not take into consideration whether the attempt to convey the sacrament of order to inappropriate subjects expresses the requisite sacramental intent, facere quod facit Ecclesia. Lots of difference, there.

GKC

Actually the Anglican Church of Canada and the Lutheran Church of Canada are only 2 denominations among many more Anglicans/ Lutherans in full communion with each other. I’d have to look it up but my hunch is that most Anglicans and Lutherans are in full communion worldwide and among those denominations probably most ordain women and some allow outwardly gay clergy.

But the focus of the article is that Anglicans, by signing the Provoo Communion and the ‘Called to Common Mission’ concordat, officially define the Eucharist in the same manner as Lutherans. I guess it is pinning down Anglicans to accept the Real Presence even though some may not be comfortable with the dogma.

I think the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogues have been successful in that both Churches exactly specify these beliefs.