"one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church"

[GKC]

Actually the Anglican Church of Canada and the Lutheran Church of Canada are only 2 denominations among many more Anglicans/ Lutherans in full communion with each other. I’d have to look it up but my hunch is that most Anglicans and Lutherans are in full communion worldwide and among those denominations probably most ordain women and some allow outwardly gay clergy.

But the focus of the article is that Anglicans, by signing the Provoo Communion and the ‘Called to Common Mission’ concordat, officially define the Eucharist in the same manner as Lutherans. I guess it is pinning down Anglicans to accept the Real Presence even though some may not be comfortable with the dogma.

I think the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogues have been successful in that both Churches exactly specify these beliefs.

Porvoo and the other agreement put around 6-7 Anglican jurisdictions and I don’t know how many Lutheran ones (2-3 maybe) in communion.

Which, with what I said above, makes a communion of liberal protestants with a vanishing stock of apostolic succession. Hence no ability to confect valid sacraments based on that.

Naught plus naught = naught.

Plus the requirement for valid sacramental intent, as mentioned.

You seem to think that orthodox Anglicans are concerned with that.

GKC

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Porvoo and the other agreement put around 6-7 Anglican jurisdictions and I don’t know how many Lutheran ones (2-3 maybe) in communion.

Which, with what I said above, makes a communion of liberal protestants with a vanishing stock of apostolic succession. Hence no ability to confect valid sacraments based on that.

Naught plus naught = naught.

Plus the requirement for valid sacramental intent, as mentioned.

You seem to think that orthodox Anglicans are concerned with that.

GKC

The Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue affirms the validity of the Eucharist in both Churches and addresses apostolic succession in a favorable light.

 

[Peter_J]

The Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue affirms the validity of the Eucharist in both Churches and addresses apostolic succession in a favorable light.

(Sigh. Must the Internet always be a propaganda war?)

EC, surely you would agree that those dialogues never asserted the validity of WO?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

(Sigh. Must the Internet always be a propaganda war?)

EC, surely you would agree that those dialogues never asserted the validity of WO?

What is “WO”?

 

[GKC]

The Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue affirms the validity of the Eucharist in both Churches and addresses apostolic succession in a favorable light.

I think what we’ve got here is a Strother Martin moment.

In a Groundhog Day context.

GKC

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I think what we’ve got here is a Strother Martin moment.

In a Groundhog Day context.

GKC

Or Cool Hand Luke: “What we’ve got here is a failure to communicate”

 

[GKC]

Or Cool Hand Luke: “What we’ve got here is a failure to communicate”

Line was originally the Captain’s.

GKC

 

[Peter_J]

What is “WO”?

Women’s Ordination.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Women’s Ordination.

Yes, the ordination of women into the priesthood remains a major issue between Lutherans and Catholics and even between Lutherans and other Lutherans [one can include Anglicans as well]. Not sure what the position is among Orthodox but I recall reading something about Orthodox ordaining women into the diaconate.

I wouldn’t call it “propaganda” however since Lutherans in some European countries began ordaining women priests in the 1970’s and yet the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue continued to the present with strong affirmations on mutual Catholic belief.

 

[GKC]

Yes, the ordination of women into the priesthood remains a major issue between Lutherans and Catholics and even between Lutherans and other Lutherans [one can include Anglicans as well]. Not sure what the position is among Orthodox but I recall reading something about Orthodox ordaining women into the diaconate.

I wouldn’t call it “propaganda” however since Lutherans in some European countries began ordaining women priests in the 1970’s and yet the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue continued to the present with strong affirmations on mutual Catholic belief.

And the ARCIC discussions continued after the Anglicans made the same error, though Rome warned that the consequences would render the discussions academic exercises.

GKC

 

[EvangelCatholic]

And the ARCIC discussions continued after the Anglicans made the same error, though Rome warned that the consequences would render the discussions academic exercises.

GKC

Gotcha.

If Orthodox and all Anglicans ordain women deacons then why not priests/ bishops?

 

[GKC]

Gotcha.

If Orthodox and all Anglicans ordain women deacons then why not priests/ bishops?

All Anglicans do not ordain deacons. Some who do distinguish between the female diaconate and the clerical order of deacon.

GKC

 

[andrewstx]

Orthodox do not ordain women as deacons, where did anyone get that idea?

There has been talk of reviving the order of deaconESSES. But it has not gone anywhere and they still would not be the same as deacons.

 

[GKC]

Orthodox do not ordain women as deacons, where did anyone get that idea?

There has been talk of reviving the order of deaconESSES. But it has not gone anywhere and they still would not be the same as deacons.

Yep.

GKC

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Orthodox do not ordain women as deacons, where did anyone get that idea?

There has been talk of reviving the order of deaconESSES. But it has not gone anywhere and they still would not be the same as deacons.

Now I am showing my ignorance but what is the difference between a male deacon and a female deaconess? I understand the liturgical deacons; in Lutheran churches they wear a stole over the left shoulder to right side of the body and, of-course, assist in the distribution of the Sacrament. A consecrated deaconess serves full time in ministries to the poor, hospitals, etc and are called ‘sister’; there are still several ‘Motherhouses’ for Lutheran deaconesses. Some still dress like nuns and are celibate.

 

[GKC]

Now I am showing by ignorance but what is the difference between a male deacon and a female deaconess? I understand the liturgical deacons; in Lutheran churches they wear a stole over the left shoulder to right side of the body and, of-course, assist in the distribution of the Sacrament. A consecrated deaconess serves full time in ministries to the poor, hospitals, etc and are called ‘sister’; there are still several ‘Motherhouses’ for Lutheran deaconesses. Some still dress like nuns and are celibate.

A deaconess is not consecrated clergy. It is more like a minor order.

Not all Anglicans recognize the office.

GKC

 

[EvangelCatholic]

A deaconess is not consecrated clergy. It is more like a minor order.

Not all Anglicans recognize the office.

GKC

A Lutheran deaconess is consecrated just like a nun. A deacon is ordained but I am not sure if liturgical deacons merely serve a particular parish or if they are recognized more broadly.

In Lutheran churches with threefold ministries, a deacon is the first step toward the priesthood; what we call vicars.

 

[andrewstx]

Now I am showing my ignorance but what is the difference between a male deacon and a female deaconess? I understand the liturgical deacons; in Lutheran churches they wear a stole over the left shoulder to right side of the body and, of-course, assist in the distribution of the Sacrament. A consecrated deaconess serves full time in ministries to the poor, hospitals, etc and are called ‘sister’; there are still several ‘Motherhouses’ for Lutheran deaconesses. Some still dress like nuns and are celibate.

Deaconesses existed in the Orthodox church for a very short time. Their only function was to help women at baptism when most people were baptized in the nude, as adults.

Now most are baptized in infancy and no longer nude. The reason for deaconesses ceased to exist and they were just dropped.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, the ordination of women into the priesthood remains a major issue between Lutherans and Catholics and even between Lutherans and other Lutherans [one can include Anglicans as well]. Not sure what the position is among Orthodox but I recall reading something about Orthodox ordaining women into the diaconate.

I wouldn’t call it “propaganda” however since Lutherans in some European countries began ordaining women priests in the 1970’s and yet the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue continued to the present with strong affirmations on mutual Catholic belief.

EC, the LCA had started the process of women’s ordination in the 1970’s as well. One of the first came out of the same parish I was raised in. I even remember her name. That doesn’t make it right, or orthodox. And eventually, it will be a stumbling block in LWF Lutheran/Catholic dialogue.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Deaconesses existed in the Orthodox church for a very short time. Their only function was to help women at baptism when most people were baptized in the nude, as adults.

Now most are baptized in infancy and no longer nude. The reason for deaconesses ceased to exist and they were just dropped.

There were deaconesses in the LCA when I was growing up, before the women’s ordination movement. So, I’m not sure why EC thinks it relevant that Orthodoxy has them.

Jon