Our young earth

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I’m on a homeschool support loop made up primarily of non-Catholic Christians (mainly non-denominational) who are really pushing the study of “Creation Science” and “Answers in Genesis.” One posting stated specifically Christians cannot believe in million year old fossils as it is contrary to what is stated in Scripture. They state there was NO physical death of any living thing before the fall. They also state that we were more than likely created to be vegetarians before the fall as were all living things. They believe in 7 literal days of Creation, yet they admit the Bible gives no clue as to how much time elapsed between Day 6 and the Fall. I’m having trouble countering their claims. The way their material is presented (you can easily find these websites) I can see why they have such a huge following which continues to grow. Are there any Catholic creation science resources on the web? I know I can easily unsubscribe from this loop but I don’t want to run from this topic. It’s been very thought provoking.
Pax Christi.
 
Joanne C.:
I’m on a homeschool support loop made up primarily of non-Catholic Christians (mainly non-denominational) who are really pushing the study of “Creation Science” and “Answers in Genesis.” One posting stated specifically Christians cannot believe in million year old fossils as it is contrary to what is stated in Scripture. They state there was NO physical death of any living thing before the fall. They also state that we were more than likely created to be vegetarians before the fall as were all living things. They believe in 7 literal days of Creation, yet they admit the Bible gives no clue as to how much time elapsed between Day 6 and the Fall. I’m having trouble countering their claims. The way their material is presented (you can easily find these websites) I can see why they have such a huge following which continues to grow. Are there any Catholic creation science resources on the web? I know I can easily unsubscribe from this loop but I don’t want to run from this topic. It’s been very thought provoking.
Pax Christi.
Sola scriptura crowds can’t be reasoned with, so this may not be much help. If you want good, basic scientific responses to some of their claims, try here:talkorigins.org/indexcc/

Peace

Tim
 
Peace to you,

Some thought provoking things for literalists see Genesis 1 and Theory for creatinists (This is the condensed version of the first link) and for a very good series of articles on the authorship of Genesis by Robert Sungenis that weblink will help.

These articles really helped me to come to terms with my protestant streak concerning Genesis - and as a result my faith, and understanding of everything else, has increased dramatically. Glory to God.

Peace

John
 
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PraRFLEsEkHm:
Peace to you,

Some thought provoking things for literalists see Genesis 1 and Theory for creatinists (This is the condensed version of the first link) and for a very good series of articles on the authorship of Genesis by Robert Sungenis that weblink will help.

These articles really helped me to come to terms with my protestant streak concerning Genesis - and as a result my faith, and understanding of everything else, has increased dramatically. Glory to God.

Peace

John
That sure was thought provoking!
 
Hi Joanne C. the Talk Orgins site is great. The problem you are really dealing with is hermenutics – that is young earth creationists equate their “scientific” understanding of scripture as being equal to God’s word. In their minds when you are arguing against their understanding of scripture you are in effect arguing against God’s word. Raise the issue of “how to interprete the Bible” first.

For example, was Noah’s Flood local or global? They use the English Translation of universal terms to arrive at a global flood. But, the hebrew word erts, that is translated “earth” simply means dirt or land, nothing more.

Unless you have gobs of time to waste arguing with them about creation, I suggest you let it go and teach your children on the side concerning creationism.

wheaton.edu/ACG/

asa3.org/

reasons.org/

ibri.org/

ibri.org/RRs/RR-contents.htm

Locate a copy of Bernard Ramm’s Christian View of Science and Scripture book.

Primeval Chronology
by Dr. William Henry Green (1825-1900)
Professor of Old Testament at Princeton Theological Seminary
published in Bibliotheca Sacra April, 1890 (pp. 285-303)
girs.com/library/theology/syllabus/creation_green.html

Green’s paper above here demonstrates that there are gaps in the genologies in scripture. The way Young Earth Creationists reach their “biblical” age of the earth is by adding up the ages in the genologies in scripture. Bishop Usher was the source of that.

google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=chronology+old+testament+greene

How Good Are Those Young-Earth Arguments?
A Close Look at Dr. Hovind’s List of Young-Earth Arguments and Other Claims by Dave E. Matson
talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood.html

google.com/custom?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&cof=BGC%3A%23FFFFFF%3BT%3A%23000000%3BLC%3A%230000CC%3BVLC%3A%230000CC%3BALC%3A%230000CC%3BGALT%3A%23008000%3BGFNT%3A%23000000%3BGIMP%3A%23000000%3BDIV%3A%230000CC%3BLBGC%3A%23FFFFFF%3B&sitesearch=www.talkorigins.org&q=Old+Earth+Creationists

A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom
cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/White/

natcenscied.org/resources/articles/8619_issue_11_volume_4_number_1__3_12_2003.asp

natcenscied.org/article.asp

google.com/search?hl=en&q=theistic+evolutionist

home.austarnet.com.au/stear/
No Answers in Genesis site
google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=no+answers+in+genesis

a book that YEC will not even try to answer is

Fallacies of creationism /
Willard A Young
1985
English Book 302 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
Calgary, Alta. : Detselig Enterprises, ; ISBN: 0920490530

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0920490530.01.AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ.jpg

images.amazon.com/images/P/0920490530.01.AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ.jpg
 
Thanks to all for the wealth of info you passed along!
Joanne C.
 
Hello Joanne,

Have you ever thought of God looking at the whole of physical time as a human looks at a three inch peice of yarn. Existance from creation to the end of time, from the smallest subatomical particle to the greatest gallexie all sitting there in the palm of God’s Hand.

God exists outside of physical time. God is Omni-Present to the whole of physical time both past and future. God has complete control and power over the whole of physical time both past and future.

Where there was no past, present or future physical time thousands of years ago, God brought into existance hundreds of billions of years of past physical time and hundreds of billions of years of future physical time. An infinite universe both past and future flowing out from God’s focus point of love for God capable Adam.

Please visit Creation
 
Steven,
I agree wholeheartedly. From the things I’ve read so far, I get the feeling “young earth creationist” Christians need/want to believe in something new. Something the Catholic Church and most established Protestant denominations don’t teach in order to set themselves apart. Though they love the sacred scriptures very deeply, they refuse to acknowledge from whence they came. My family has been to Carlsbad Caverns in New Mexico, so we have seen first hand how long it took(and continues to take) God’s beautiful creation to take shape. Thanks for your insights.
Pray without ceasing…
Joanne
 
Joanne C.:
Steven,
I agree wholeheartedly. From the things I’ve read so far, I get the feeling “young earth creationist” Christians need/want to believe in something new. Something the Catholic Church and most established Protestant denominations don’t teach in order to set themselves apart. Though they love the sacred scriptures very deeply, they refuse to acknowledge from whence they came. My family has been to Carlsbad Caverns in New Mexico, so we have seen first hand how long it took(and continues to take) God’s beautiful creation to take shape. Thanks for your insights.
Pray without ceasing…
Joanne
Hello Joanne,

As you can see from my post I also believe that the universe was created six or ten thousand years ago. I simply understand that God is outside of time. God looks at the whole of physical time, which He created, like we would look at a three inch piece of yarn. The creation of infinite past and infinite future time flows out into existance from God’s focus point of Adam because free willed Adam is the reason for creation. Before six or ten thousand or sixty thousand years ago there was nothing. After God created now there came into existance billions of years of past and billions of years of future physical time.

So I cannot fault fundimentalists for also believing in creation thousands of years ago. It is rediculous for the fundimentalists to think that God would not also create an infinite past allong with an infinite future, six thousand years ago.

One must remember that advancing science has taken it’s toll on the Catholic Church also. The Church had Galileo arrested. Many of Galileo’s day used his scientific advances to disclaim Genisis, and therefore holy scriptures, and Church teaching as wrong.

The point I am getting at is that the Catholic Church has not always said, “Sure the world is billions of years old.” Nor has the Church always said “of course the world is not flat!” Or “of course the earth revolves around the sun!” There were tremendous growing pains between the Catholic Church and science also. Foes of the Church also attacked scriptures and the Church with scientific data that the world was not flat, revolved around the sun and the world was older than Genisis seems to present it.

The problem is really on the side of science in its failure to understand the tremendous creating power of our God who exists outside of physcial time. Science looks at a million year old rock and they falsely assume that creation must have taken place before a million years ago for this million year old rock to exist. Science says that their can be no such thing as future prophecy from our, omni-present to the whole of physical time, God in scriptures because this is physically impossible. Scriptural prophecies of Jesus have been proven correct.

God is outside of time. Thousands of years ago, God created a universe with infinite past and infinite future.
 
Joanne,

I believe that creation occurred 6-10kya. I am not a Fundamentalist or “biblical literalist” (despite what that title even means). The fundamental problem missed by many of the mainstream “evolution vs. creationism” battlegrounds is not over religion intruding into science’s realm and/or vice versa, but over how we as Christians understand Sacred Scripture and nature itself.

Fundamentalists believe Scripture because it is God’s Word and thus carries authority. I believe the Gospel first, and from that flows the belief in the rest of Scripture. My faith would not be damaged if evolution ended up being correct, theirs might.

The problems of accepting evolution are both scientific and theological. Death before Original Sin does not bother me. Just as Christ’s redemptive work operates retroactively in time to redeem the OT patriarchs, the consequences of Original Sin could operate retroactively…Scripture simply says sin entered the world through one man and through sin, death. However, God is needlessly cruel to both early animals and early “man.” Suddenly after all that death Adam wins the door prize and everything is hunky dory again? I don’t think so nor can I accept that vision of God. Christ also refers to in the beginning God created them male and female. Evolutionarily there was no life in the beginning, and even in the beginning of life there was no sex.

Personally I think the acceptance of evolution by traditional Christian denominations is a form of compliance with ancient pagan philosophies turned modern scientific paradigm. As a Lutheran I have a different understanding of Scripture, that it flows from God as St. Paul’s letter to Timothy says. Hence, the information is solid. Scripture is not a history nor science book…it is much more. It INCLUDES history and observation. If we give in to this fundamental doctrine as easily as we are…how long will it be before Christ’s resurrection or even existence is placed into this same form of debate? We’ve never observed a person rise from the dead like he did…hence it is an article of faith…why is a recent creation so hard to accept even though it could be argued from physical evidence (I’m not arguing this here, just making a point that some evidence exists)? As the late Christian historian Jaroslav Pelikan said, “If Christ rose from the dead, nothing else matters. If Christ didn’t rise from the dead…nothing else matters.”

Pax,

Paleolutheran
 
Why do some Christians insist on turning the bible into something it was never meant to be–a science book? This can do nothing but harm religion. A six to ten year old universe is simply untenable. Read the bible for divine revelation about the things God wans us to know for our salvation. Read something like Brian Greene’s Fabric of the Cosmos for cosmology.
 
It’s worth noting that there’s nothing wrong with a Catholic being a young earth creationist: it’s an area where Catholics are permitted freedom, to my knowledge.

As such, I ought to mention that despite being fairly well-educated on science, I don’t find the theory of evolution to be a compelling theory and as such am a young earth creationist. You’ll not get arguments from me, regardless of your stance on evolution (no point, in my mind), but I simply find the young earth creation theory more credible than the theory of evolution.

I’m not the only of my reputedly-intelligent friends who feels this way. We believe in evolution: speciation, natural selection, etc – but we don’t believe in the “millions and millions of years” evolutionary explanation for human origins. It’s simply not something we find to be a compelling theory, and that’s not from lack of education or intelligence: in fact, quite the opposite: we’re the sorts of people who read books by Richard Dawkins and biology textbooks for the fun of it 🙂

Anyway, just figured I’d say that. I don’t care whether people believe in an evolutionary origin, but do sometimes get annoyed at the vehemence with which some of them attack those of us who, upon examination of the evidence, don’t find it an intellectually compelling theory.

Jeremy
 
Sorry, I wasn’t thinking primarily of biolgical evolutionary theory, more along cosmological lines. It seems that all of the various lines of study, from geology to physics to astronomy, point to a much older universe than a few thousand years.

It’s not that Catholics aren’t free to choose among theories; they are. It’s just that giving too much credence to cosmological theories that are either unsupported by evidence, or are supported mainly by ones interpretation of Genesis, tends to make Catholics, and the Church by implication, seem to be opposed to science, when it isn’t.

I don’t think that any true sciene can ever contradict the truths of Faith, (not even biological evolution, to whatever degree it turns out to be correct.)
 
Two books every Christian should own and study well:

Keith B. Miller, Perspectives On An Evolving Creation (Eerdmans, 2003) [ISBN 0-8028-0512-4]

Kenneth R. Miller, Finding Darwin’s God: A Scientist’s Search for Common Ground Between God & Evolution (HarperCollins, 1999) [ISBN 0-06-017593-1]

The first book is a collection written by evangelical Protestants, all of whom are professional scientists, theologians, and philosophers. An excellent text. The second book is a fine treatment written by a molecular biologist who teaches at Brown University, and who is a committed Catholic. I can’t recommend these books highly enough.

Happy reading!

Don
+T+
 
The proof of any scientific theory is its usefullness.

People who use the notion of a billions of year old earth find oil and gold and copper and fossils and nuclear energy and dark matter and …

People who belive the earth is 30,000 years old, well, what good has that theory done them?
 
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