Perfection

[TruthSeeker319]

Is the creation (the whole of it, not the individual parts) that God created perfect?
If creation is perfect, then is each part of creation necessary for this perfection? Or can there be unnecessary parts of creation?
If all parts of creation are necessary for the perfection of creation, does that make each person necessary for this perfection?

This is a nice thought (if it is accurate) because it illustrates how important God deems (in a loving way, not in a way that means he needs us) us. It shows how much God loves us. There is something beautiful in thinking that we each are necessary to the perfection of creation (not to God, of course, but to his loving creation).

Is this theologically accurate? I want to say it is because God’s final creation was mankind and then he stopped.

EDIT: CCC 302: “Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it.” What does this mean in regards to my proposed argument?

 

[paduard]

Is the creation (the whole of it, not the individual parts) that God created perfect?
If creation is perfect, then is each part of creation necessary for this perfection? Or can there be unnecessary parts of creation?
If all parts of creation are necessary for the perfection of creation, does that make each person necessary for this perfection?

This is a nice thought (if it is accurate) because it illustrates how important God deems (in a loving way, not in a way that means he needs us) us. It shows how much God loves us. There is something beautiful in thinking that we each are necessary to the perfection of creation (not to God, of course, but to his loving creation).

Is this theologically accurate? I want to say it is because God’s final creation was mankind and then he stopped.

EDIT: CCC 302: “Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it.” What does this mean in regards to my proposed argument?

Methnks that CCC 302 supports your post.

paduard

 

[JapaneseKappa]

In this best of all possible worlds, everything is for the best.

-Candide

 

[tonyrey]

In this best of all possible worlds, everything is for the best. -Candide

According to Schopenhauer this is the worst of all possible worlds:

Life swings like a pendulum backward and forward between pain and boredom.

Human life must be some form of mistake.

We can regard our life as a uselessly disturbing episode in the blissful repose of nothingness

Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills

There is no doubt that life is given us, not to be enjoyed, but to be overcome --to be got over.

The doctor sees all the weakness of mankind; the lawyer all the wickedness, the theologian all the stupidity.

The brain may be regarded as a kind of parasite of the organism, a pensioner, as it were, who dwells with the body.

Only a male intellect clouded by the sexual drive could call the stunted, narrow-shouldered, broad-hipped and short-legged sex the fair sex.

In the sphere of thought, absurdity and perversity remain the masters of the world, and their dominion is suspended only for brief periods.

Satisfaction consists in freedom from pain, which is the positive element of life.

Almost all of our sorrows spring out of our relations with other people.

ranker.com/list/a-list-of-famous-arthur-schopenhauer-quotes/reference?page=2&var=5

 

[JapaneseKappa]

According to Schopenhauer this is the worst of all possible worlds:

As far as I remember, he said that it is a bad thing to be born, but that is not the same thing as saying this is the worst of all possible worlds.

 

[inocente]

If all parts of creation are necessary for the perfection of creation, does that make each person necessary for this perfection?

Not unless you can explain to their victims why Stalin, Hitler, etc. were necessary for perfection.

 

[TruthSeeker319]

According to Schopenhauer this is the worst of all possible worlds:

ranker.com/list/a-list-of-famous-arthur-schopenhauer-quotes/reference?page=2&var=5

Leibniz thought this was the best of all possible worlds too.

 

[Bookcat]

According to Schopenhauer this is the worst of all possible worlds:

]

Hum…well one can tell from the quotes that he needed some help…serious help…

Above all the Gospel!

 

[Bookcat]

EDIT: CCC 302: “Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it.”

And we look forward the resurrection and the new heavens and earth!

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1042

Little excerpt:

1042 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed:

The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.631

1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, "new heavens and a new earth."632 It will be the definitive realization of God’s plan to bring under a single head "all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth."633

1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men.634 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."635

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Leibniz thought this was the best of all possible worlds too.

Quite right, that was the attitude Voltaire was criticizing in Candide (see my quote.)

Specifically, the problem with that kind of description of the world is that every bad thing that happens necessarily makes the world better. E.g. if Judas had not betrayed Jesus, the world would be a worse place. Since this is the best of all possible worlds, a world with less or different evil would not be the best of all possible worlds, and therefore worse.

 

[Frankenfurter]

Is the creation (the whole of it, not the individual parts) that God created perfect?

No.

God gave us a hand in creation. He gave us power.

We messed it up and ALL of creation fell.

It is not perfect.

 

[tonyrey]

As far as I remember, he said that it is a bad thing to be born, but that is not the same thing as saying this is the worst of all possible worlds.

“He is also known as the philosopher of pessimism, as he articulated a worldview that challenges the value of existence.” iep.utm.edu/schopenh/

 

[tonyrey]

Quite right, that was the attitude Voltaire was criticizing in Candide (see my quote.)

Specifically, the problem with that kind of description of the world is that every bad thing that happens necessarily makes the world better. E.g. if Judas had not betrayed Jesus, the world would be a worse place. Since this is the best of all possible worlds, a world with less or different evil would not be the best of all possible worlds, and therefore worse.

The onus is on you to provide a feasible blueprint of a world which is perfect in every respect, i.e. to explain how all its drawbacks could be prevented…

 

[tonyrey]

Hum…well one can tell from the quotes that he needed some help…serious help…

Above all the Gospel!

I think intellectual pride, vanity, misanthropy and misogyny were at the root of his problems…

 

[JapaneseKappa]

The onus is on you to provide a feasible blueprint of a world which is perfect in every respect, i.e. to explain how all its drawbacks could be prevented…

That’s completely irrelevant to my point.

I was describing Voltaire’s criticism of the view that this is the best of all possible worlds.

The criticism is:
If this is the best of all possible worlds, then any change we can imagine to this world is either makes the world worse, or is impossible.

I gave the example of Judas’ betrayal. We can imagine Judas choosing not to betray Jesus. Now there are exactly two possibilities: it was impossible for Judas to stay faithful to Jesus (has implications for free will and Judas’ culpability) or the world where Judas stays faithful is worse (has implications for how we measure goodness.)

I was not asserting that a perfect world exists, or that a change like the Judas example would constitute a perfect world, so I have no idea where this mysterious “onus” comes from.

 

[bmullins]

Wouldn’t the notion be more along the line that creation is perfect, including free will… but that when we exercise our free will to bring sin into the picture it is not creation that is fallen but we ourselves. Then the world would still be as perfect as it can be… but less than the perfect it was because of our sin… That allows for both perfection of God’s creation to be true, while also indicating the cause of any imperfections are not a flaw in a design… but a new standard of what perfection is possible with the limitation we have imposed on it by trying to define our own metaphysics?

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Wouldn’t the notion be more along the line that creation is perfect, including free will… but that when we exercise our free will to bring sin into the picture it is not creation that is fallen but we ourselves. Then the world would still be as perfect as it can be… but less than the perfect it was because of our sin… That allows for both perfection of God’s creation to be true, while also indicating the cause of any imperfections are not a flaw in a design… but a new standard of what perfection is possible with the limitation we have imposed on it by trying to define our own metaphysics?

That’s fine, and a view I am sympathetic to, but I think it suffers from the problem of “natural evil.”

The idea that natural disasters are a punishment from God is now rightly viewed as outdated the ancient Greek and Roman pantheon. But if these natural disasters are not caused by human free will, then of course they must be a feature of the perfect world. So we’re left with a similar problem: we can ask if the world would be better without some particular earthquake or flood or disease.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Is the creation (the whole of it, not the individual parts) that God created perfect?
If creation is perfect, then is each part of creation necessary for this perfection? Or can there be unnecessary parts of creation?
If all parts of creation are necessary for the perfection of creation, does that make each person necessary for this perfection?

This is a nice thought (if it is accurate) because it illustrates how important God deems (in a loving way, not in a way that means he needs us) us. It shows how much God loves us. There is something beautiful in thinking that we each are necessary to the perfection of creation (not to God, of course, but to his loving creation).

Is this theologically accurate? I want to say it is because God’s final creation was mankind and then he stopped.

EDIT: CCC 302: “Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it.” What does this mean in regards to my proposed argument?

God created us in a state of journey as the catechism states. Something in journey is not yet perfect. Creation may be being perfected. But I don’t see how that would make everything in creation necessary for that perfection to occur. For something imperfect can not make something else perfect. The only thing necessary for our perfection is God.