Predestination?

[Mike_D30]

I read this on another board:

*"Catholics believe that all men who make it to Heaven make it there because they were predestined to make it by God. We do not believe the same thing about hell… every person who goes to hell goes because of his own sins, not because God predestines them to hell.

We believe in predestination to Heaven, but not predestination to hell. "*

I’m just learning my Catholic faith again, but is this accurate? Do we as Catholics really believe that only some are predestined for heaven and the rest of us are simply spinning our wheels? Man this is another sock to the gut…

 

[EsclavoDeCristo]

This is in reference to those protestants who believe in the doctrine of “predestination”. I am not familiar with all the details but it goes something like this: “God knows everything, God knows the future, God knows who is going to hell therefore God predestines some to go to Heaven and some to go to Hell when he creates them”.

The Catholic stance is not that at all. To paraphrase the Church’s stance: “God creates all men and women to go to heaven. However, we screw it up by sinning and separating ourselves from Him, thus denying the salvation he wants to give us. By our sins and denial of Him we in essence send ourselves to hell. He wants us all in heaven with Him and he creates us for that.”

Hope that helps!

God bless you brother!

 

[Contarini]

Mike_D30:

I read this on another board:

*"Catholics believe that all men who make it to Heaven make it there because they were predestined to make it by God. We do not believe the same thing about hell… every person who goes to hell goes because of his own sins, not because God predestines them to hell.

We believe in predestination to Heaven, but not predestination to hell. "*

I’m just learning my Catholic faith again, but is this accurate? Do we as Catholics really believe that only some a predestined for heaven adn the rest of us are simply spinning our wheels? Man this is another sock to the gut…

This is one of the perennial questions that comes up on this board.

Basically the statement is right, but many Catholic theologians would soften it considerably into something much like Protestant “Arminianism.”

It’s an incredibly complicated question. But people who are not predestined (in Catholic theology) are not spinning their wheels, paradoxical as this sounds. People who go to hell choose freely to do so.

There are two main Catholic theories about predestination–Thomism and Molinism. Thomism (which may or may not be a faithful interpretation of what Aquinas taught–it certainly adds some details not in Thomas) teaches that God gives some people a kind of grace He does not give others. He gives everyone sufficient grace, so that if they respond they will be saved. But he gives others efficient grace, which moves their wills to respond.

Many Catholic theologians found this unacceptable, and today Molinism is far more popular. Molinism teaches that God knows what circumstances will lead a person to accept grace. So predestination simply means that God puts a person in circumstances that He knows will lead to their salvation. In other words, God may give someone opportunities He doesn’t give others.

However, one can use Molinism to argue that God gives everyone the maximum opportunity possible, so that the only people who are damned are people who would not accept grace no matter the circumstances. That seems to be what most Catholics mean by “Molinism” today.

I may be wrong on some of the details–I understand the issues fairly well up to the 16th century, but I’m not so knowledgeable about the Catholic debates after the Reformation.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

EsclavoDeCristo:

This is in reference to those protestants who believe in the doctrine of “predestination”. I am not familiar with all the details but it goes something like this: “God knows everything, God knows the future, God knows who is going to hell therefore God predestines some to go to Heaven and some to go to Hell when he creates them”.

The Catholic stance is not that at all. To paraphrase the Church’s stance: “God creates all men and women to go to heaven. However, we screw it up by sinning and separating ourselves from Him, thus denying the salvation he wants to give us. By our sins and denial of Him we in essence send ourselves to hell. He wants us all in heaven with Him and he creates us for that.”

Hope that helps!

God bless you brother!

Esclavo, I’m afraid you are wrong. Catholics do believe in predestination, although not in positive reprobation (i.e,. God simply destines some people to be damned).

Edwin

 

[Lazerlike42]

No, we don’t believe that - necessarily. It’s actually quite a complicated topic. There is no official Catholic teaching on what predestination is. The Church never claims to know more than Christ taught Her. Therefore, She teaches only what limited knowledge He left Her about it.

Basically, the Church says what She knows is not true about predestination, and invited the faithful to consider on their own beyond that. The Church provides guidelines, so to speak.

Basically, the Church says Catholics must believe A) predestination occurs, in some way, and B) God provides every man with enough grace to be saved, so implicitly C) every person has it as his or her free choice to accept or reject God’s offer of salvation.

If you want to read a little deeper, I highly recommend ewtn.com/library/Theology/MOSTSOLV.HTM

 

[Lazerlike42]

Contarini:

This is one of the perennial questions that comes up on this board.

Basically the statement is right, but many Catholic theologians would soften it considerably into something much like Protestant “Arminianism.”

It’s an incredibly complicated question. But people who are not predestined (in Catholic theology) are not spinning their wheels, paradoxical as this sounds. People who go to hell choose freely to do so.

There are two main Catholic theories about predestination–Thomism and Molinism. Thomism (which may or may not be a faithful interpretation of what Aquinas taught–it certainly adds some details not in Thomas) teaches that God gives some people a kind of grace He does not give others. He gives everyone sufficient grace, so that if they respond they will be saved. But he gives others efficient grace, which moves their wills to respond.

Many Catholic theologians found this unacceptable, and today Molinism is far more popular. Molinism teaches that God knows what circumstances will lead a person to accept grace. So predestination simply means that God puts a person in circumstances that He knows will lead to their salvation. In other words, God may give someone opportunities He doesn’t give others.

However, one can use Molinism to argue that God gives everyone the maximum opportunity possible, so that the only people who are damned are people who would not accept grace no matter the circumstances. That seems to be what most Catholics mean by “Molinism” today.

I may be wrong on some of the details–I understand the issues fairly well up to the 16th century, but I’m not so knowledgeable about the Catholic debates after the Reformation.

Edwin

St. Thomas’ teachings were really nothing like Thomism. The link I provided explains this, among other things.

 

[Contarini]

Lazerlike42:

St. Thomas’ teachings were really nothing like Thomism. The link I provided explains this, among other things.

Most doesn’t say that St. Thomas’s teaching were nothing like Thomism. He has a convoluted argument saying that St. Thomas’s teachings point in two different directions and the Thomists only picked up on one of these trajectories. That is quite different from what you are saying, and I don’t find his argument very convincing anyway.

St. Thomas explicitly teaches that God predestinates people (to life) without regard to their foreseen actions. Even Fr. Most doesn’t argue otherwise, though he tries to get around the fact as best he can.

I actually think Fr. Most’s position may be about as good a one as there is. But I dislike his superior tone and his less than straightforward way of dealing with what St. Thomas actually taught. He is wrong to pretend that he is standing within the tradition of St. Thomas.

Edwin