Presbyterian would like to know?

[henryl]

A friend of mine who is a Presbyterian would like to know. How can Christ become the bread and be holding himself at the last supper. Also if Christ is present in the Eucharist how is that different from the second coming of Christ if he is already present in the Eucharist?

 

[TOME]

There are a couple of ways to answer your friend’s question.
First, we are dealing with a mster therefore we will not have all the answers.

Also, and this came from councils a long time ago that while Bread and wine have been changed into Christ Body and Blood, the totality of Christ’s presence is not limited to the that particular peice of bread and and cup of wine. There is a biblical basis for this partly found in the post resurrectional events and in St Paul’s letter 1 Cor. As ST Paul relates Christ was able to appear to over 500 at the same time. Therefore, from this we know that the Resurrected and Glorified Body of Christ transends our human understanding of space and time.

As for Christ holding Himself at the Last Supper. I think you should remind your friend in case he forgot what we believe comes from Christ’s own words. It was Christ Jesus who said that the bread was His Body and the Cup of Wine His Blood.

So being the trusting sort of people we Christians are suppose to be I think we should take Jesus at His word and believe the bread and wine are His Body and Blood.

However, I am sure your friend will say that since Jesus added “Do this as a memorial (Rememberance) of Me…” he will say Jesus is only talking symbolically. To which I would reply that the Real Presence was not in questioned by either the Eastern Tradition nor the West for the first 1500 years of the Church’s existence. It was only the reformers like Calvin and Luther and Zwingli who began to question and deny the real presence and even they could not agree (Luther did believe in the Real Presence of the Eucharist at the Liturgy itself). So how did the whole Church, guided by the Holy Spirit get it wrong for such a long time? Also, given the fact that the Real Presence was held by the Church (East and West) for the first 1500 years, by what authority did Calvin and Zwingli have to disregard what is clearly a dogma rooted in the Tradition of the Apostles? The East and Western Churches disagrees on many things but the Real Presence is not one of them and perhaps your friend would like to explain that?

 

[anawim]

Jesus is God, after all. He can do anything. Your Presbyterian friend does believe in miracles, does he not?

 

[Erbey]

Christ is really present in the Holy Eucharist and is verified by St.Paul in 1 Cor 11:27-30. He said, whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of wine of the Lord unworthily brings judgement on himself and some who received it unworthily were weak, ill, and even had died. Now how in the world can you sin and bring judgement upon yourself by eating bread and drinking wine? Unless, of course it is what Jesus Christ said it is. He said this is my body and this is my blood Matt 26:26-28, Luke 22:19, and a good reference John 6:53-56 and in verse 63 it says “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life” Now he’s not talking about his flesh is of no avail but of the flesh or fleshly minded. Next, a very key text here that helped me is where it says that the words he has spoken are spirit. Every time in the Bible where it talks of the spirit of God or of Christ, it’s always Literal, not symbolic. For example, God is Spirit and those who worship him, worship him in spirit and truth. I hope this will help you.

 

[Montie_Claunch]

henryl:

A friend of mine who is a Presbyterian would like to know. How can Christ become the bread and be holding himself at the last supper.

This might be an oversimpification(sp?) but, I always looked at it like this. If God could say “Let there be light” and just like that there was Light. And all this other stuff happens just by him saying it. I would trust that if he said, This IS my Body, This IS my blood, I will put faith in that he can pull it off. I mean, who are we to put limits on what God can and can’t do. He’s God, he can do whatever he feels like.

 

[Chipper]

henryl:

… Also if Christ is present in the Eucharist how is that different from the second coming of Christ if he is already present in the Eucharist?

Howdy. Firstly, Eucharist is Greek for “Thanksgiving”. The Eucharist is a fulfillment of the old testament “Todah”. The Old testament often gave thanksgiving to God, in the form of bread and wine, called a Todah. King David even had his preists set up a perpetual “Todah”, offered every day and night.

So when in the Chruch you receive that Eucharist, you are offering it back to God as a perfected Todah, in thanksgiving to God. The Eucharist also nurishes our Body and Souls, for obtaining Eternal Life.

This is how it’s different than the Second Coming of Christ. The Second coming of Christ, would not be the same thing as a Todah.

Regards,
Chipper

 

[need_to_know]

I thought at the last supper the bread and wine were only **symbols **because he had not sacrificed himself for our sins at the crucifixion yet? Obviously now they are the true presence, because of the sacrifice which we repeat at mass, but it can only happen because of the final sacrifice of Christ. Can anyone help me here? Am I right here?

 

[AquinasXVI]

This question to me at least is a problem in and of itself. We are trying to make logistics with factors that we know in the material world FIT into the logistics of the Creator of all matter.

If we are going to scrutinize the nature of the Transubstatiation during the Last Supper, it is the same as asking, what was the size of all the matter involved in the Big Bang?

What we do have to deal with IMHO is that He made it so. That the fact itself is the confounding mystery. And that fact alone is worth all the meditation and contemplation we can muster.

in XT.

 

[vern_humphrey]

We know it because Jesus told us:

Matthew 26, 26-28

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Veritas41]

I thought I would respond to this since I used to be Presbyterian myself

First, take a look at the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves and fish in John 6, which just so happens to occur in the very same chapter where Jesus gives His discourse on the Eucharist, stating the necessity of having to eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have eternal life. If Jesus can multiply bread and fish, surely He can multiply His flesh and blood, so He can offer it to us without “losing” any of His “body parts,” making it quite possible for Him to offer His Body and Blood while sitting with the Disciples at the Last Supper. (Not to mention the fact that He changed water into wine at the wedding at Cana, a prefiguring of His changing wine and bread into His Body and Blood).

Now take a look at Christ’s promise while giving the Great Commission, “And surely I am with you, always, to the very end of the age.” (Matt 28:20). This is fulfilled beautifully in the Eucharist. This doesn’t cause any problem with the Second Coming, because then Jesus will come in glory from heaven for all the world to see. In the Eucharist His glory is veiled and He is seen with the eyes of faith.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Veritas41:

I thought I would respond to this since I used to be Presbyterian myself

First, take a look at the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves and fish in John 6, which just so happens to occur in the very same chapter where Jesus gives His discourse on the Eucharist, stating the necessity of having to eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have eternal life. If Jesus can multiply bread and fish, surely He can multiply His flesh and blood, so He can offer it to us without “losing” any of His “body parts,” making it quite possible for Him to offer His Body and Blood while sitting with the Disciples at the Last Supper. (Not to mention the fact that He changed water into wine at the wedding at Cana, a prefiguring of His changing wine and bread into His Body and Blood).

Now take a look at Christ’s promise while giving the Great Commission, “And surely I am with you, always, to the very end of the age.” (Matt 28:20). This is fulfilled beautifully in the Eucharist. This doesn’t cause any problem with the Second Coming, because then Jesus will come in glory from heaven for all the world to see. In the Eucharist His glory is veiled and He is seen with the eyes of faith.

Very good point. I would approach the discussion like this:

Start with Matthew 26, 26-28. “Jesus said it was his body and his blood. Do you agree or disagree with Him?”

Then go on to Matthew 28:20. “Jesus said he would be with us always. Do you agree or disagree with Him?”

 

[montanaman]

henryl:

A friend of mine who is a Presbyterian would like to know. How can Christ become the bread and be holding himself at the last supper. Also if Christ is present in the Eucharist how is that different from the second coming of Christ if he is already present in the Eucharist?

Heh. How does God create a universe roughly 15 billion light years “across” with no raw material?

Tell your friend to get a little faith.

 

[Veritas41]

vern humphrey:

Start with Matthew 26, 26-28. “Jesus said it was his body and his blood. Do you agree or disagree with Him?”

Then go on to Matthew 28:20. “Jesus said he would be with us always. Do you agree or disagree with Him?”

Good one!

 

[valient_Lucy]

henryl:

A friend of mine who is a Presbyterian would like to know. How can Christ become the bread and be holding himself at the last supper. Also if Christ is present in the Eucharist how is that different from the second coming of Christ if he is already present in the Eucharist?

Probably the same way that God can be everywhere, and yet present in all his Glory in Heaven. Most Protestants don’t see any contradiction between Jesus being present “in their hearts” and Jesus being “seated at the right hand of the Father”

 

[VociMike]

henryl:

A friend of mine who is a Presbyterian would like to know. How can Christ become the bread and be holding himself at the last supper.

How can Christ possible raise Himself from the dead after three days in the tomb?

Also if Christ is present in the Eucharist how is that different from the second coming of Christ if he is already present in the Eucharist?

And yet even Presbyterians believe that Christ is present on earth now: “For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” How is that different from the second coming?

 

[VociMike]

need_to_know:

I thought at the last supper the bread and wine were only **symbols **because he had not sacrificed himself for our sins at the crucifixion yet? Obviously now they are the true presence, because of the sacrifice which we repeat at mass, but it can only happen because of the final sacrifice of Christ. Can anyone help me here? Am I right here?

If you look at the narratives of the Last Supper you see that Christ does not speak of His sacrifice in the future tense. He speaks of His body which is given, and His blood which is poured out. That is because His sacrifice is not just located in time but also outside of time. This is also why Christ can be our High Priest. A priest must have a sacrifice to offer, and Christ is eternally offering His sacrifice to the Father. If the sacrifice were truly over then we could not join with it and have it truly made present again at Mass.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Read John chapter 6. Jesus multiplies the loaves immediately before He begins talking about the real presence. He multiplies the loaves to help people to understand in the miracle of His body being everywhere at once just like the loaves were. This is why the two discussions occurr one after the other, because they are linked.

 

[Erbey]

I don’t understand how a black cow that eats green grass gives white milk but it happens every day. If Jesus said it, I believe it end of discussion!!!
God Bless You!! :thumbsup:

 

[Subrosa]

henryl:

A friend of mine who is a Presbyterian would like to know. How can Christ become the bread and be holding himself at the last supper. Also if Christ is present in the Eucharist how is that different from the second coming of Christ if he is already present in the Eucharist?

Why don’t you have your Presbyterian friend post this question for him/herself? I am sure that we would like to meet and converse with him/her.

Blessings,
Subrosa

 

[mtr01]

There is a little quote I like to use from St. Augustine that shows this belief was held in the Early Church as well:

Christ bore Himself in His hands

, when He offered His body saying: “this is my body.”* (Enarr. in Ps. 33 Sermo 1, 10; on p.377)*