Protestant Rhetoric

[jonfan]

Hi. I am a new member here. I have been born and raised a catholic and went to catholic school for 11 years. I have been married for 3 1/2 years to a catholic irish woman. I have to admit I wasn’t always a good catholic. I have been coming back slowly now and realizing that the Catholic Church is the one and only true church of Jesus Christ. I was discussing this with a co-worker who claims he is “born again” and does not need to sprinkled by water to be baptized by the holy spirit. I advised him that all over the bible it mentions baptism through water. He then asked me to explain how Jesus told the robber next to him on the cross "“You’ll be in Paradise with me today,” without being baptised. I was kind of stumped. The only thing I could think of later was that the robbers death was his baptism. Any ideas on how to debunk this myth to my coworker. By the way he has commited apostasy as he was baptised a Catholic. I would like to get him back as I see he is a decent person.

 

[Brain]

baptism is the normal way one is saved and the only sure-fire way to erase original sin. BUT baptism (and all sacraments) have their power because God promised to provide the grace whenever these actions were perfomed. but of couse God can always go around the normal way of giving grace (sacraments), one of the perks of being onipotent.

but it is a beter idea to receve the sacraments and be SURE to have recieved the graces, then to hope that God will make an exception to the rule. Always trust his mercy, but don’t presume it.

I think the Church considers those who are martyred for the faith before baptism (B by blood), or those who truly desire to be baptised but die before they are baptised (eg RCIA student gets in a car wreck, B by desire) as if they were baptized because God is just and would not condemn someone who died loving him. However I could be wrong so dont argue this unless someone can confirm this

 

[jonfan]

Thank’s Brian!

 

[PaulDupre]

Hi jonfan,
Welcome aboard!

The penitent thief was saved by what we call “baptism of desire”. According to the Cathechism, baptism of desire means that if the person (after believing and experiencing sorrow for his sins) would have accepted water baptism, but it was not available before he died, it is credited to him as if he were actually baptized.
Paul

 

[exoflare]

There are three kinds of valid baptism… Baptism by water (the most common kind of course), baptism by desire, and baptism by blood.

Baptism by desire is when you basicallly submit to Jesus’/God’s will and you are considered baptized even though you haven’t gone through water baptism. However, it is important to remember that one who truly has gone through baptism by desire (impossible for another human being to know for sure, from the outside, normally) will be only too glad to go through the normal water baptism as soon as they get a chance.

Baptism by blood is basically becoming a martyr. Even if the person had not gone through water baptism, they are still considered as taken into God’s family by their act of perfect love for Jesus. I would guess that it is a rare occurence that anyone who undergoes such a trial hadn’t been baptized by water in the first place, though…

 

[jonfan]

Thanks! This is great. These people seem to constantly have some wacky interpretation that faith is simplicity. I don’t really mind what anyone chooses to believe but when they start in on the one true religion through Christ it gets annoying. this guy went as far as to quote some verse from the bible about a pagan eating meat and realting that to me as a catholic and how a true chirstian will put up with other weaker christians.