Purely Symbolic Eucharist Apologetics from Church Fathers

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I find this a little difficult to accept. Are we to understand then that when Jesus says He is a door He is literally a door? Or when he says He is the vine He is actually a vine?
Can you show me in the Scriptures where His disciples were disgusted when He declared Himself to be a door or a vine? Yet they were appalled and many left Him when He told them that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Paper was expensive in those days. Those details are in there for a reason. They are there to highlight the fact that this was no metaphor.

BroChuckles, I’m not sure it’s warranted to describe Sungenis as a scholar. The word implies certain credentials and reputation among the learned. Being able to turn a good phrase and arrange an argument does not make one a scholar. Especially if the person in question holds some other, umm, strange opinions. Just a quibble.
 
Can you show me in the Scriptures where His disciples were disgusted when He declared Himself to be a door or a vine? Yet they were appalled and many left Him when He told them that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Paper was expensive in those days. Those details are in there for a reason. They are there to highlight the fact that this was no metaphor.
For the sake of discussion, I don’t think this argument proves very much. That the disciples and others present for the bread of life discourse took Jesus to be speaking literally instead of metaphorically doesn’t prove that he was not speaking metaphorically. It could mean that, but it could also mean they simply did not understand, because they did not truly believe.
BroChuckles, I’m not sure it’s warranted to describe Sungenis as a scholar. The word implies certain credentials and reputation among the learned. Being able to turn a good phrase and arrange an argument does not make one a scholar. Especially if the person in question holds some other, umm, strange opinions. Just a quibble.
Word.
 
For the sake of discussion, I don’t think this argument proves very much. That the disciples and others present for the bread of life discourse took Jesus to be speaking literally instead of metaphorically doesn’t prove that he was not speaking metaphorically. It could mean that, but it could also mean they simply did not understand, because they did not truly believe.
You here seem to assert that the Son of God, the fount of mercy, forgiveness and reconciliation knowingly allowed people to reject Him over a misunderstanding He could easily have corrected with about two sentences of clarification? He obviously knew that people were taking it that way because he turned to his disciples and challenged THEM to either accept or reject it. Is that how YOU would treat a sincere seeker looking to find God in this life that obviously misunderstood one of your explanations? Let the guy just walk away disgusted without trying to fix the misunderstanding? I doubt it. Why would you think that of Jesus?
 
You here seem to assert that the Son of God, the fount of mercy, forgiveness and reconciliation knowingly allowed people to reject Him over a misunderstanding He could easily have corrected with about two sentences of clarification?
Yep. He did it on other occassions as well. How did that metaphor of the temple of his body being raised in three days, which the Pharisees took literally, go with him correcting their misunderstanding? The other parables they misunderstood? etc etc? Thing is, Jesus knew who did and did not have faith in Him; those who refused to believe never understood.
He obviously knew that people were taking it that way because he turned to his disciples and challenged THEM to either accept or reject it.
Yes. And I believe they understood His meaning. His meaning, of course, was that to eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood was to come to Him and believe in Him. Hence, Peter’s response. “We have believed…” That is Augustine’s interpretation.

Now, I wouldn’t quibble too much with the interpretation that Catholics have. After all, we do sacramentally eat His true body and blood. So it’s not as if His bread of life discourse doesn’t have application to the Supper. I don’t think it’s the primary meaning, though.
Is that how YOU would treat a sincere seeker looking to find God in this life that obviously misunderstood one of your explanations? Let the guy just walk away disgusted without trying to fix the misunderstanding? I doubt it. Why would you think that of Jesus?
Because He did, numerous times. The argument put forth seems to obligate Jesus to explain anything. It doesn’t.
 
It make me feel like I am giving my son his catechism over and over again to come to this site.

Holy Communion which basically means to come together with Christ in this Sacrament, is not merely the body and blood of Christ. The Eucharist is The Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ in His Totality as the Hyper-static Union the complete Man and God. He is present within us until the species under which He has come to us is consumed and no longer recognizable clinically to have any of the attributes as either bread or wine.

After reception we should spend that time in communication with Him who is now present inside us physically and which can last up to approximately twenty minutes.
 
Many beautiful testimonies regarding the blessed Sacrament but it seems we are “preaching to the choir”, so to speak. I sense the Presbyterian posters are unhappy with the way Calvin’s eucharistic teaching are being portrayed and urge them to not be offended but help us understand your beliefs concerning holy Communion.
 
There isn’t any. But then all the Protestants I personally know don’t bother to look. They don’t see any value of any writings except the Bible (the origin of which they’re not curious) and of they’re favorite modern Protestant author. I do think that those who do choose to research the Church Fathers on this or any other topic will quickly become Orthodox or Catholic.
That seems a rather broad brush you’re painting with.
 
You can look at the Lutherans, the Episcopalians, the UCC, the Reformed Church in America, The Methodists, Presbyterians, and the Moravians and none believe communion is just a commemoration. All feel there is some “real” presence there whether it be spiritual or physical. The argument is difficult because the terms is being defined differently by all involved.
 
=rcwitness;11784500]In our desire, as Catholics, to come together in a True Presence Eucharist (the flesh and blood of Jesus), we are constantly challenged by a “purely symbolic” interpretation of Communion. I have listened to faithfull Christians testify to the good aspects of this interpretation, which I don’t see as apostasy from the True faith. For our Christian brothers and sisters who Commune with a purely symbolic interpretation, can you provide for us some early Church apologetics which clearly convey this belief?
Sincerely,
Michael
The early Church Fathers interpreted these passages literally. In summarizing the early Fathers’ teachings on Christ’s Real Presence, renowned Protestant historian of the early Church J. N. D. Kelly, writes: “Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood” (Early Christian Doctrines, 440).

Ignatius of Antioch
“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
“We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration * and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
“If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?” (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

“He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?” (ibid., 5:2).

Clement of Alexandria

“’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children” (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).*
 
=Northcoast prof;11816267]You can look at the Lutherans, the Episcopalians, the UCC, the Reformed Church in America, The Methodists, Presbyterians, and the Moravians and none believe communion is just a commemoration. All feel there is some “real” presence there whether it be spiritual or physical. The argument is difficult because the terms is being defined differently by all involved.
OK, but should not the “authors” of the terms have the RIGHT to determine their defination:)
 
You can look at the Lutherans, the Episcopalians, the UCC, the Reformed Church in America, The Methodists, Presbyterians, and the Moravians and none believe communion is just a commemoration. All feel there is some “real” presence there whether it be spiritual or physical. The argument is difficult because the terms is being defined differently by all involved.
Which is partly why the term “real presence” is rather meaningless in our day and age. The spirit of postmodernity has reduced those terms to being subject to whatever the individual determines the word to mean to him or her.

But back in the day, when words mattered, real presence meant a local, substantial, sacramental presence. No matter which way you slice it, the only Christian traditions that hold to that are the Catholics, Lutherans and Orthodox (and a smattering of Anglo-Catholics). The Presbyterian, Episcopal, UCC, et al. view is completely short of that, and therefore, not “real.”
 
OK, but should not the “authors” of the terms have the RIGHT to determine their defination:)
I’ve said that often about the term sola scriptura, and it still is misrepresented “you can’t use anything but the Bible” (and not just by Catholics). 😉

So, I guess not. 😃
Jon
 
The early Church Fathers interpreted these passages literally. In summarizing the early Fathers’ teachings on Christ’s Real Presence, renowned Protestant historian of the early Church J. N. D. Kelly, writes: “Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood” (Early Christian Doctrines, 440).

Ignatius of Antioch
“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
“We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration * and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
“If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?” (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

“He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?” (ibid., 5:2).

Clement of Alexandria

“’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children” (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).*

So how “real” is the “real presence”? Do those who demand to know that they got a chunk of ear or part of a gall bladder regard the rest of you as not believing in the Real Presence?
Can we actually draw a firm line between those who believe in the RP versus those who believe in a Purely Symbolic Eucharist (PRE)? Or is it an overlap, with cannibalism on the one end of the spectrum and an insistence on the Real Absence on the other end?

Can you say that because I believe that Christ is really, truly present, localized even in the elements, with graces for those who partake, although I deny transubstantiation, while affirming that where His Spirit is so is His Body in a particular mysterious way, that I do not believe in the Real Presence? Or must only ear-chompers be considered truly Catholic?
 
I’ve said that often about the term sola scriptura, and it still is misrepresented “you can’t use anything but the Bible” (and not just by Catholics). 😉

So, I guess not. 😃
Jon
The dispute here is at what level tradition is with Scripture. Catholics hold it as equal and inseparable. I believe Lutherans hold that tradition is subservient to Scripture. I could be wrong. I think the magisterium for both Catholics and Lutherans are servants and guardians of scripture and tradition.

When Catholics attempt to define sola scriptura, it isn’t really our fault we take it as bible only, because many denominations contend it is, and when proven they don’t follow it, they change the definition. Lutherans definitely don’t fit here (well, at least the traditional ones). But we can hardly be blamed for the extraordinary confusion in the definition of sola scriptura.
 
So how “real” is the “real presence”? Do those who demand to know that they got a chunk of ear or part of a gall bladder regard the rest of you as not believing in the Real Presence?
Can we actually draw a firm line between those who believe in the RP versus those who believe in a Purely Symbolic Eucharist (PRE)? Or is it an overlap, with cannibalism on the one end of the spectrum and an insistence on the Real Absence on the other end?

Can you say that because I believe that Christ is really, truly present, localized even in the elements, with graces for those who partake, although I deny transubstantiation, while affirming that where His Spirit is so is His Body in a particular mysterious way, that I do not believe in the Real Presence? Or must only ear-chompers be considered truly Catholic?
Real in that He is physically present. As in body, blood, soul, and divinity. The Fathers didn’t use the term transubstantiation (though Justin Martyr used ‘transmute’ which is essentially the same), but they certainly professed both a physical and spiritual presence.

The orthodox and Catholic Church hold to this. Lutherans do also, although we don’t recognize their sacrament as valid. So unless you hold to an actual physical presence as well as spiritual, you are at odds with the disciples and successors of the apostles, and the apostles themselves. And history.
 
Can you say that because I believe that Christ is really, truly present, localized even in the elements, with graces for those who partake, although I deny transubstantiation, while affirming that where His Spirit is so is His Body in a particular mysterious way, that I do not believe in the Real Presence? Or must only ear-chompers be considered truly Catholic?
Well, if you do believe in a localized, substantial presence in the elements than yes, you do believe in the real presence. But that is not what is confessed in the Westminster Confession (or any other Reformed confession). The Reformed tradition denies all of what you stated you believe.

As for the rest, i.e., the cannabalism part. Since no one holds to that, why mention it?
 
So how “real” is the “real presence”? Do those who demand to know that they got a chunk of ear or part of a gall bladder regard the rest of you as not believing in the Real Presence?
Can we actually draw a firm line between those who believe in the RP versus those who believe in a Purely Symbolic Eucharist (PRE)? Or is it an overlap, with cannibalism on the one end of the spectrum and an insistence on the Real Absence on the other end?

Can you say that because I believe that Christ is really, truly present, localized even in the elements, with graces for those who partake, although I deny transubstantiation, while affirming that where His Spirit is so is His Body in a particular mysterious way, that I do not believe in the Real Presence? Or must only ear-chompers be considered truly Catholic?
I find this to be an outrageous misrepresentation of the real presence, regardless of whether it is expressed as transubstantiation or sacramental union.

Jon
 
Real in that He is physically present. As in body, blood, soul, and divinity. The Fathers didn’t use the term transubstantiation (though Justin Martyr used ‘transmute’ which is essentially the same), but they certainly professed both a physical and spiritual presence.

The orthodox and Catholic Church hold to this. Lutherans do also, although we don’t recognize their sacrament as valid. So unless you hold to an actual physical presence as well as spiritual, you are at odds with the disciples and successors of the apostles, and the apostles themselves. And history.
And Anglicans.

Some of them.

GKC
 
I humbly beg your pardon. Allow me to stipulate that I do not believe Catholics are “ear-chompers” or that the Real Presence is cannibalism. I was focused on the idea of a spectrum of belief from denying anything happens to overstating what actually happens.

I am very sorry if I offended anyone. I am still trying to figure out what is meant by a “symbolic” versus a “real” Eucharist.
 
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