Purgatory

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mikeledes

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Many Catholics interpret Matthew 5:25-26 as being a reference to purgatory - including James Akin - since it states that the person will not be “released” from prison until he has paid the last penny. Some Protestants will say, however, that since the person could never pay the debt, the “prison” is actually a reference to hell and not purgatory. In the parable of the unforgiving servant (Matthew 18:21-35), the unforgiving servant is handed over to the torturers “until he should pay back the whole debt.” Since Matthew 18:25 indicates that he had no way of paying the debt, that means he will be tortured forever. The New American Bible note on this verse supports this view. Therefore, how do we know the prison of Matthew 5:25-26 is purgatory and not hell?
 
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mikeledes:
Many Catholics interpret Matthew 5:25-26 as being a reference to purgatory - including James Akin - since it states that the person will not be “released” from prison until he has paid the last penny. Some Protestants will say, however, that since the person could never pay the debt, the “prison” is actually a reference to hell and not purgatory. In the parable of the unforgiving servant (Matthew 18:21-35), the unforgiving servant is handed over to the torturers “until he should pay back the whole debt.” Since Matthew 18:25 indicates that he had no way of paying the debt, that means he will be tortured forever. The New American Bible note on this verse supports this view. Therefore, how do we know the prison of Matthew 5:25-26 is purgatory and not hell?
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Well, whats the point of Jesus saying that unless it were possible for the prisioner to pay to the last penny?
 
That’s what I thought until I cam across the parable of the unforgiving servant. That parable seems to insinuate that the person will be released after he ha payed the whole debt. Sinc he can’t pay the whole debt, he will be tortured forever. Since the person in “prison” is unable to pay his debt, he will remain in prison forever. At least that’s what the protestants say.
 
Well my point is this: Jesus says, “until he should pay back the whole debt.” The word “until” indicates that the whole debt can be paid, but not at all once. Heaven and hell are “final destinations” so the word “until” dosen’t make a whole lot of sense because it implies a condition to be satisfied. If you’re in Heaven or Hell you’re not going anywhere else. What if Jesus said: “You shall remain in the dark until you find the light switch and turn it on”. Would this mean that Jesus is condeming you to darkness for all eternity? No, you’d be in darkness until you groped around for a while and found the switch.

Try these out and see which one makes the most sense…

He shall remain in Heaven until the whole debt is repaid.
He shall remain in Hell until the whole debt is repaid.
He shall remain in Purgatory until the whole debt is repaid.
 
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Wildgraywolf:
so the word “until” dosen’t make a whole lot of sense because it implies a condition
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Not for the Hebrews, where this word has interesting constructions.

Consider, for instance, Matthew 1:25 where it is said that St. Joseph “knew her not until she brought forth her firstborn Son.”

Obviously, the word “until” here denotes merely a break in time; Mary, being ever virgin, was not known either before or after.

Or, as Bishop Challoner notes in his Douay-Rheims notes, consider Isaiah 46:4, where God says “I am until you grow old.”

Obviously, no one would infer that God would then cease to be.

The same is true in English when we say, for instance, of a widow, “She loved her husband until he died.” She does not then cease to love him; the “until” denotes a break in time.

That said, Christ’s references to purgatory are perhaps more strongly referenced in the dictum about “binding and loosing” in the life to come; nothing is loosed in Heaven, where all is already forgiven, nor in hell, where the chance has passed. This denotes an intermediate where sins may be forgiven, hence, Purgatory.
 
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mikeledes:
That’s what I thought until I came across the parable of the unforgiving servant. That parable seems to insinuate that the person will be released after he has payed the whole debt. Sinc he can’t pay the whole debt, he will be tortured forever. Since the person in “prison” is unable to pay his debt, he will remain in prison forever. At least that’s what the protestants say.
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The biggest problem people come across in reading ancient texts is interpreting it achronistically. They try to put stories into the context of modern society and that simply doesn’t work. I’d imagine that there was a way to pay off the debt. Perhaps his family or friends would work extra and pay the debt for him as a kind of bail. This is something I don’t know and would have to be answered by a historian.
 
Mike O:
Not for the Hebrews, where this word has interesting constructions.

Consider, for instance, Matthew 1:25 where it is said that St. Joseph “knew her not until she brought forth her firstborn Son.”

Obviously, the word “until” here denotes merely a break in time; Mary, being ever virgin, was not known either before or after.

Or, as Bishop Challoner notes in his Douay-Rheims notes, consider Isaiah 46:4, where God says “I am until you grow old.”

Obviously, no one would infer that God would then cease to be.

The same is true in English when we say, for instance, of a widow, “She loved her husband until he died.” She does not then cease to love him; the “until” denotes a break in time.

That said, Christ’s references to purgatory are perhaps more strongly referenced in the dictum about “binding and loosing” in the life to come; nothing is loosed in Heaven, where all is already forgiven, nor in hell, where the chance has passed. This denotes an intermediate where sins may be forgiven, hence, Purgatory.
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Don’t forget to consider context…

Try this using your example of the wife… Consider that love is a verb (not only an emotion) and the object of the verb is the husband. So she loved her husband by doing things for him, with him and in consideraton of him; that would be be impossible after his death. After his death though it’s not likely the emotion part would fade away. Expressing her love for her husband by doing ended when he died, yet she never stopped loving her husband (emotion). See?
 
I always thought the debt he had to pay was his term of prison–like a debt to society.

I am always surprised when I discover that my reading of scripture is so shallow. I am heavily influenced by my culture. I’m probably very typical of most scripture readers
 
I gotta be honest I’m a Catholic but I never understood purgatory either. It never made much sense to me. I don’t know exactly why, it’s seems like something that came out of a debate about faith and works and a decent idea, but with really nothing to back it up, but it stuck.
 
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Wildgraywolf:
Well, whats the point of Jesus saying that unless it were possible for the prisioner to pay to the last penny?
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And yet, this is precisely the argument many Protestants like to use to illustrate that Mary knew Joseph after the birth of Jesus (references to her first-born, etc.). However, there are other aspects of the Bible which strongly militate toward a belief in Purgatory, including Maccabees and Revelation. (I do not have citations handy, but believe they can be found at the Catholic Answers apologetics site.)
 
Quis ut Deus:
And yet, this is precisely the argument many Protestants like to use to illustrate that Mary knew Joseph after the birth of Jesus (references to her first-born, etc.). However, there are other aspects of the Bible which strongly militate toward a belief in Purgatory, including Maccabees and Revelation. (I do not have citations handy, but believe they can be found at the Catholic Answers apologetics site.)
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Yep and that’s way we say, “Context, Context and Context”!
 
Aaron I.:
Perhaps his family or friends would work extra and pay the debt for him as a kind of bail. This is something I don’t know and would have to be answered by a historian.
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Well that never occured to me… That’s what we do when we offer prayers for those in Purgatory.
 
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