Question about prayer and intercession

[laocmo]

One of God’s attributes is Immutable. Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change. Another accepted attribute is Impassible. Impassible means cannot be influenced by the actions of another being. That means you can’t make God happy, sad, or feel sorry for you so as to grant an answer to your prayers. The saints, Mary, and I suppose your guardian angel might intercede on your behalf, but by the definition of the Church’s above accepted attributes, God can not be affected.

It would seem that the early theologians and philosophers by listing all those confusing attributes of God, and having the Church accept them did a disservice to later Christians. They, were uneducated people, who probably never heard of those theoretical attributes. So they later invented the idea that they could influence God, change His mind, or ask him for something that would require Him to change his state. They started thinking of him as some kind of benevolent monarch in the sky who could be flattered, cajoled, talked into doing things, etc.

These attributes to me make the concept of prayer and intercession by other beings seem like a waste of time. How does the Church explain this?

 

[adamhovey1988]

One of God’s attributes is Immutable. Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change. Another accepted attribute is Impassible. Impassible means cannot be influenced by the actions of another being. That means you can’t make God happy, sad, or feel sorry for you so as to grant an answer to your prayers. The saints, Mary, and I suppose your guardian angel might intercede on your behalf, but by the definition of the Church’s above accepted attributes, God can not be affected.

It would seem that the early theologians and philosophers by listing all those confusing attributes of God, and having the Church accept them did a disservice to later Christians. They, were uneducated people, who probably never heard of those theoretical attributes. So they later invented the idea that they could influence God, change His mind, or ask him for something that would require Him to change his state. They started thinking of him as some kind of benevolent monarch in the sky who could be flattered, cajoled, talked into doing things, etc.

These attributes to me make the concept of prayer and intercession by other beings seem like a waste of time. How does the Church explain this?

In what way were they uneducated? One can be educated without having formal schooling. I am confused by your phrasing.

 

[porthos11]

One of God’s attributes is Immutable. Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change. Another accepted attribute is Impassible. Impassible means cannot be influenced by the actions of another being. That means you can’t make God happy, sad, or feel sorry for you so as to grant an answer to your prayers. The saints, Mary, and I suppose your guardian angel might intercede on your behalf, but by the definition of the Church’s above accepted attributes, God can not be affected.

It would seem that the early theologians and philosophers by listing all those confusing attributes of God, and having the Church accept them did a disservice to later Christians. They, were uneducated people, who probably never heard of those theoretical attributes. So they later invented the idea that they could influence God, change His mind, or ask him for something that would require Him to change his state. They started thinking of him as some kind of benevolent monarch in the sky who could be flattered, cajoled, talked into doing things, etc.

These attributes to me make the concept of prayer and intercession by other beings seem like a waste of time. How does the Church explain this?

God’s immutability and impassibility are not obstacles to the efficacy of intercessory prayer. His will and providence being as immutable as he is, he has ordained from eternity that the granting of certain favours would be contingent upon the prayer of certain people, be they earthly or glorified. Our intercessory prayers are said that we may bring about what God has already decreed from eternity.

And how about the intercessory prayer itself, you ask? That too is part of the plan of divine providence, as prayer itself is an action of grace, and the order of grace is fixed. And no, before you even begin to object, it does not damage our free will. As dealt with in other questions, God always brings about the eternal decrees of his providence always taking into account man’s free will in the accomplishment of his actions. How this is accomplished is not defined, and there are multiple schools of thought that are acceptable for Catholics to hold, so take your pick.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=5817

 

[JuanFlorencio]

One of God’s attributes is Immutable. Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change. Another accepted attribute is Impassible. Impassible means cannot be influenced by the actions of another being. That means you can’t make God happy, sad, or feel sorry for you so as to grant an answer to your prayers. The saints, Mary, and I suppose your guardian angel might intercede on your behalf, but by the definition of the Church’s above accepted attributes, God can not be affected.

It would seem that the early theologians and philosophers by listing all those confusing attributes of God, and having the Church accept them did a disservice to later Christians. They, were uneducated people, who probably never heard of those theoretical attributes. So they later invented the idea that they could influence God, change His mind, or ask him for something that would require Him to change his state. They started thinking of him as some kind of benevolent monarch in the sky who could be flattered, cajoled, talked into doing things, etc.

These attributes to me make the concept of prayer and intercession by other beings seem like a waste of time. How does the Church explain this?

It seems to me that you are not talking about prayer, but about superstition and magic, a technique comprising certain words and attitudes, which followed rigorously allow you to use an available mysterious energy according to your wishes. I guess you are sufficiently educated to understand that such practice is wrong. But if you open your educated mind and your savage heart, and persistently present yourself to God as you really are, then the immutable love and mercy of God will make you become spiritually mature. No need to change God’s “Mind” to put your childish thoughts and desires in Him. That is of course impossible. But through real prayer you will be modeled according to His immutable and perfect will.

Don’t waste your time with a superstitious attitude, and start praying.

 

[laocmo]

In what way were they uneducated? One can be educated without having formal schooling. I am confused by your phrasing.

The common people were ignorant peasants for the most part. They couldn’t read or write their own native language, much less Latin.

 

[laocmo]

God’s immutability and impassibility are not obstacles to the efficacy of intercessory prayer. His will and providence being as immutable as he is, he has ordained from eternity that the granting of certain favors would be contingent upon the prayer of certain people, be they earthly or glorified.

In other words you do not accept the dictionary definitions of immutability and impassibility?

If he has allowed certain favors to be contingent upon prayer then he has suspended his above attributes. That would be impossible, He cannot change.

 

[laocmo]

It seems to me that you are not talking about prayer, but about superstition and magic, a technique comprising certain words and attitudes, which followed rigorously allow you to use an available mysterious energy according to your wishes. I guess you are sufficiently educated to understand that such practice is wrong. But if you open your educated mind and your savage heart, and persistently present yourself to God as you really are, then the immutable love and mercy of God will make you become spiritually mature. No need to change God’s “Mind” to put your childish thoughts and desires in Him. That is of course impossible. But through real prayer you will be modeled according to His immutable and perfect will.

Sorry Juan, but this makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

In other words you do not accept the dictionary definitions of immutability and impassibility?

If he has allowed certain favors to be contingent upon prayer then he has suspended his above attributes. That would be impossible, He cannot change.

All possible scenarios of our choices have already been accounted for by God. It is up to us to accept His grace and pray for what we desire. This way he “knows” the degree to which we are on board with His will.

What Juan is saying, I think, is that asking God for the Patriots to win a game is not really a prayer.

Keep in mind the limitations of language and peoples understanding of it when discussing stuff like this.

 

[porthos11]

In other words you do not accept the dictionary definitions of immutability and impassibility?

If he has allowed certain favors to be contingent upon prayer then he has suspended his above attributes. That would be impossible, He cannot change.

First of all, I do not go to the dictionary for theological concepts. But in this case, yes, I do. God’s immutability and impassability are absolute. Intercessory prayer does not change God’s mind, because God cannot change.

And no, your conclusion is incorrect. Because this contingency is already part of the eternal divine decree, which is also immutable. Both the contingency of the favour being granted and the action of the prayer itself are part of divine providence, which is as immutable as the divine will itself.

I explained that in the rest of my post and is even better presented in the link provided.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

Sorry Juan, but this makes absolutely no sense to me.

All possible scenarios of our choices have already been accounted for by God. It is up to us to accept His grace and pray for what we desire. This way he “knows” the degree to which we are on board with His will.

What Juan is saying, I think, is that asking God for the Patriots to win a game is not really a prayer.

Keep in mind the limitations of language and peoples understanding of it when discussing stuff like this.

Of course, Iaocmo! I would like to write in English like Shakespeare did, but it is not my mother tongue. I am working hard on it, but it is still a long way.

I wasn’t thinking precisely on something similar to 1Lord1Faith’s example (thank you, 1Lord1Faith!). I have been involved in several hard situations in my life. In one of them, my wife was diagnosed with canker in her neck. The doctors said it was a strange, aggressive and difficult case of canker. One of those days my wife was depressed because she received the visit of some of her friends, and one of them had told her that she had canker because surely she was in mortal sin. When she said this to me I got very close to her, and told her that we should have faith in the Lord, because we were in his hands; in the middle of the storm we could learn to pray saying “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”, acknowledging that we were weak. After a surgery, the doctors defined the treatment. My wife was so sad and fearful! We kept silent all the way back home. And when we got there, she summoned our little children to tell them that she had decided to change her appearance, because she was bored with her hair, and that from that moment she would wear a beautiful wig… I admired her. She was decided to fight with all her strengths, with all her mind, with all her heart, because she loved her children. And she knew that God was with her.

During all that time, my wife never expressed the idea of wanting to change the will of God, but she prayed continually expressing gratitude for the children that God had given her, and for whom she cared so much.

 

[laocmo]

Of course, Iaocmo! I would like to write in English like Shakespeare did, but it is not my mother tongue. I am working hard on it, but it is still a long way.

Did not mean to criticize your skills in English, just trying to indicate difficulty with fully understanding your thoughts. My apology.