Questions on Limbo or more importantly the Fate of the Unbaptized Baby

[TOmNossor]

Tom, can you provide the source of St Francis saying this about St Paul? St Paul does not approve of baptism for the dead. This is a misreading of scripture.

Your view is the Protestant view St. Francis condemns. This doctor of the church is quite clear that Paul APPROVES of the practice. St. Francis does not think it likely that dead bodies are exhumed or even that water is involved, but he condemns the common Protestant response you offer.
Stephen has dug up the reference:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11800292&postcount=166

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Stephen168:
As John Henry Newman suggested, where do we find the dictum of Vincent in regard to barring blacks from the priesthood, exaltation, polygamy, Melchizedek Priesthood, excommunicating Apostles, blood atonement, or water baptism on behalf of the dead. These unique Mormon doctrines were believed by the early church: nowhere, never, and not by anyone. By using the Vincentian Canon you have opened “an assault upon” Mormonism that practices inventions not restorations.
First, to use St. Vincent or even the preservation of Tradition is to weigh Mormonism by Catholic standards. I try to weigh Catholicism by Catholic standards, Catholicism fails the test when judged by what LDS teach God’s church must possess.
Just a recap, God’s church in the Old Testament could receive revelation and write scripture.
God’s church in the New Testament could receive revelation and write scripture.
Only the CoJCoLDS claims to be able to receive this type of revelation and to be able to produce scripture.

Now, your list, “nowhere, never, and not by anyone.”
Two examples to show you are absolutely wrong.

Exaultation: that men can become gods was the teaching of the early Christian church. For 3 Catholics who speak of this read the Catechism of the Catholic Church article 460. I am familiar with the debates on this subject and I do not think the Catholic anti-deification view is very strong at all. Read Deification and Grace for a Catholic non-anti-Mormon view. If you want to know my views on the best way to frame LDS exaltations thoughts, Blake Ostler’s Exploring Mormon Thought aligns quite well with my view.

Polygamy was practiced in the Old Testament. Clearly somewhere and by someone it was practiced.

So, your statement, “nowhere, never, and not by anyone” is wrong. Barry Bickmore’s book is worthwhile. Here reviewed by a Catholic (for full disclosure - former Catholic, and not a LDS): publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/12/2/S00013-51b9ecf431e1713Waltz.pdf

Charity, TOm

 

[TexanKnight]

by you continuing this odd argument, you have clearly either elevated Popes or demoted lds “prophets”.

Tour refusal to tell us which shows that you are not even sure

 

[iepuras]

Your view is the Protestant view St. Francis condemns. This doctor of the church is quite clear that Paul APPROVES of the practice. St. Francis does not think it likely that dead bodies are exhumed or even that water is involved, but he condemns the common Protestant response you offer.
Stephen has dug up the reference:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11800292&postcount=166

Charity, TOm

Nor does St. Francis de Sales say that Paul approved of water baptism by proxy. By baptism, he referred to prayer and penance for the dead which the ancient Christian churches still do.

 

[Stephen168]

First, to use St. Vincent or even the preservation of Tradition is to weigh Mormonism by Catholic standards. I try to weigh Catholicism by Catholic standards, Catholicism fails the test when judged by what LDS teach God’s church must possess.
Just a recap, God’s church in the Old Testament could receive revelation and write scripture.
God’s church in the New Testament could receive revelation and write scripture.
Only the CoJCoLDS claims to be able to receive this type of revelation and to be able to produce scripture.

Now, your list, “nowhere, never, and not by anyone.”
Two examples to show you are absolutely wrong.

Exaultation: that men can become gods was the teaching of the early Christian church.
Polygamy was practiced in the Old Testament. Clearly somewhere and by someone it was practiced

The dictum of St. Vincent is a rule to be used to identify new heresies in the Church. You are not using it that way. As John Newman said, the way anti-Catholics use it, the way you use it, brings an assault upon Mormonism. Your Church of Jesus Christ (Mormon) standard of God’s Church fails the test.
St. Irenaeus gives us Christian ‘exaltation’ to the final state of our soul and St. Athanasius tells us why. This is NOT the teaching of Mormonism.
St. Irenaeus:

For the Uncreated is perfect, that is, God. Now it was necessary that man should in the first instance be created; and having been created, should receive growth; and having received growth, should be strengthened; and having been strengthened, should abound; and having abounded, should recover [from the disease of sin]; and having recovered, should be glorified; and being glorified, should see his Lord. For God is He who is yet to be seen, and the beholding of God is productive of immortality, but immortality renders one near unto God.

St. Athanasius:

He said that God had made all things out of pre-existent and uncreated matter, just as the carpenter makes things only out of wood that already exists. But those who hold this view do not realize that to deny that God is Himself the Cause of matter is to impute limitation to Him, just as it is undoubtedly a limitation on the part of the carpenter that he can make nothing unless he has the wood. How could God be called Maker and Artificer if His ability to make depended on some other cause, namely on matter itself?

If Joseph Smith claimed to restore Judaism, I would agree that a religious leader gives revelation and polygamy was taught, but this is not Christian; the Church of Jesus Christ.
These teachings of Joseph Smith and Lorenzo Snow are taught nowhere, never, and not by anyone.
You will find the Church of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church.