Salvation outside the church

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Does anyone know of any papal writings that talk about non Catholics being able to be get to heaven? I know Vatican II talks about this but I am looking for things written before Vatican II that specifically say people outside the Church have at least a chance of getting to heaven.
 
gsaman said:
Does anyone know of any papal writings that talk about non Catholics being able to be get to heaven? I know Vatican II talks about this but I am looking for things written before Vatican II that specifically say people outside the Church have at least a chance of getting to heaven.
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Council of Trent, I would think.

In short, if you’re not Catholic, your only shot at salvation hinges on Baptism of Desire or invincible ignorance. Only God can judge such cases but if you’re the person in such a situation and you know it, I’m somewhat certain you’re guilty of presumption if you don’t become a good, practicing Catholic in short order. In all cases, salvation comes from the Catholic Church and only from the Catholic Church. Anyone saying otherwise is going to find themselves on the nasty side of several anathemas published throughout the ages. That’s why the teaching of the Church has always been to be Baptized and follow the Ten Commandments and the Commandments of the Church.
 
gsaman said:
Does anyone know of any papal writings that talk about non Catholics being able to be get to heaven? I know Vatican II talks about this but I am looking for things written before Vatican II that specifically say people outside the Church have at least a chance of getting to heaven.
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Blessed Pius IX (Encyclical Singulari Quidem):

1647 For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. (Denzinger)

Blessed Pius IX (Encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore)

1677 And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life [see n. 1717]. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of PETER, to whom “the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior,” * cannot obtain eternal salvation. (Denzinger)

Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X:

29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

cont’d below:
 
Thanks for the info. However, I already know the teaching; I’m looking for something official and written before Vatican II that gives that teaching. I can find several writings that emphasize there is no salvation outside the church but they don’t qualify that with talking about invincible ignorance, etc.

BTW, this is not for me it is for a friend who tends to have traditionalist leanings. So, Vatican II is not “sufficient”; I need something pre VII to show the teaching existed previously.
 
Baltimore Catechism
  1. Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?
A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.

Anyone who knows the Catholic religion to be the true religion and will not embrace it cannot enter into Heaven. If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it.

In like manner one who, doubting, fears to examine the religion he professes lest he should discover its falsity and be convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, cannot be saved.

Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never – even in the past – had the slightest doubt of that fact – what will become of him?

If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister – not being a true priest – has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? What we call contrition is often only imperfect contrition – that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholic – with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such acts – might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.

If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.

I am giving you an example, however, that is rarely found, except in the case of infants or very small children baptized in Protestant sects. All infants rightly baptized by anyone are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess. Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church; but those among them who deny its teaching, reject its Sacraments, and refuse to submit to its lawful pastors, are rebellious children known as heretics.

I said I gave you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, receiving its Sacraments, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult matter.

I do not speak here of pagans who have never heard of Our Lord or His holy religion, but of those outside the Church who claim to be good Christians without being members of the Catholic Church.

cont’d below:
 
Pope Ven. Pius XII – Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston, August 8, 1949

Given on August 8, 1949 explaining the true sense of the Catholic doctrine that there is no salvation outside the Church.

This important Letter of the Holy Office is introduced by a letter of the Most Reverend Archbishop of Boston.

The Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has examined again the problem of Father Leonard Feeney and St. Benedict Center. Having studied carefully the publications issued by the Center, and having considered all the circumstances of this case, the Sacred Congregation has ordered me to publish, in its entirety, the letter which the same Congregation sent me on the 8th of August, 1949. The Supreme Pontiff, His Holiness, Pope Pius XII, has given full approval to this decision. In due obedience, therefore, we publish, in its entirety, the Latin text of the letter as received from the Holy Office with an English translation of the same approved by the Holy See.

Given at Boston, Mass., the 4th day of September, 1952.

Walter J. Furlong, Chancellor

Richard J. Cushing, Archbishop of Boston.

LETTER OF THE HOLY OFFICE

From the Headquarters of the Holy Office, Aug. 8, 1949.

Your Excellency:

This Supreme Sacred Congregation has followed very attentively the rise and the course of the grave controversy stirred up by certain associates of “St. Benedict Center” and “Boston College” in regard to the interpretation of that axiom: “Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

After having examined all the documents that are necessary or useful in this matter, among them information from your Chancery, as well as appeals and reports in which the associates of “St. Benedict Center” explain their opinions and complaints, and also many other documents pertinent to the controversy, officially collected, the same Sacred Congregation is convinced that the unfortunate controversy arose from the fact that the axiom, “outside the Church there is no salvation,” was not correctly understood and weighed, and that the same controversy was rendered more bitter by serious disturbance of discipline arising from the fact that some of the associates of the institutions mentioned above refused reverence and obedience to legitimate authorities.

Accordingly, the Most Eminent and Most Reverend Cardinals of this Supreme Congregation, in a plenary session held on Wednesday, July 27, 1949, decreed, and the august Pontiff in an audience on the following Thursday, July 28, 1949, deigned to give his approval, that the following explanations pertinent to the doctrine, and also that invitations and exhortations relevant to discipline be given:

We are bound by divine and Catholic faith to believe all those things which are contained in the word of God, whether it be Scripture or Tradition, and are proposed by the Church to be believed as divinely revealed, not only through solemn judgment but also through the ordinary and universal teaching office (, n. 1792).

Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.

However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.

Now, in the first place, the Church teaches that in this matter there is question of a most strict command of Jesus Christ. For He explicitly enjoined on His apostles to teach all nations to observe all things whatsoever He Himself had commanded (Matt. 28: 19-20).

Now, among the commandments of Christ, that one holds not the least place by which we are commanded to be incorporated by baptism into the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, and to remain united to Christ and to His Vicar, through whom He Himself in a visible manner governs the Church on earth.

Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.

cont’d below:
 
Not only did the Savior command that all nations should enter the Church, but He also decreed the Church to be a means of salvation without which no one can enter the kingdom of eternal glory.

In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man’s final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circumstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance (, nn. 797, 807).

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.

These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.

Discussing the members of which the Mystical Body is-composed here on earth, the same august Pontiff says: “Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.”

Toward the end of this same encyclical letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who “are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire,” and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition “in which they cannot be sure of their salvation” since “they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church” (AAS, 1. c., p. 243). With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally well in every religion (cf. Pope Pius IX, Allocution, , in , n. 1641 ff.; also Pope Pius IX in the encyclical letter, , in , n. 1677).

But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: “For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him” (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): “Faith is the beginning of man’s salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children” (, n. 801).

cont’d below:
 
From what has been said it is evident that those things which are proposed in the periodical , fascicle 3, as the genuine teaching of the Catholic Church are far from being such and are very harmful both to those within the Church and those without.

From these declarations which pertain to doctrine, certain conclusions follow which regard discipline and conduct, and which cannot be unknown to those who vigorously defend the necessity by which all are bound of belonging to the true Church and of submitting to the authority of the Roman Pontiff and of the Bishops “whom the Holy Ghost has placed . . . to rule the Church” (Acts 20:28).

Hence, one cannot understand how the St. Benedict Center can consistently claim to be a Catholic school and wish to be accounted such, and yet not conform to the prescriptions of canons 1381 and 1382 of the Code of Canon Law, and continue to exist as a source of discord and rebellion against ecclesiastical authority and as a source of the disturbance of many consciences.

Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a “Defender of the Faith,” and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities, and has not even feared to incur grave sanctions threatened by the sacred canons because of his serious violations of his duties as a religious, a priest, and an ordinary member of the Church.

Finally, it is in no wise to be tolerated that certain Catholics shall claim for themselves the right to publish a periodical, for the purpose of spreading theological doctrines, without the permission of competent Church authority, called the “<imprimatur,>“ which is prescribed by the sacred canons.

Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church seriously bear in mind that after “Rome has spoken” they cannot be excused even by reasons of good faith. Certainly, their bond and duty of obedience toward the Church is much graver than that of those who as yet are related to the Church “only by an unconscious desire.” Let them realize that they are children of the Church, lovingly nourished by her with the milk of doctrine and the sacraments, and hence, having heard the clear voice of their Mother, they cannot be excused from culpable ignorance, and therefore to them apply without any restriction that principle: submission to the Catholic Church and to the Sovereign Pontiff is required as necessary for salvation.

In sending this letter, I declare my profound esteem, and remain,

Your Excellency’s most devoted,

F. Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani.

A. Ottaviani, Assessor.

Holy Office, 8 Aug., 1949.
 
SemperFidelis said:
Blessed Pius IX (Encyclical Singulari Quidem):

Blessed Pius IX (Encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore)

Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X: Q 17 and 29

These are great. Thanks. If anyone knows of any others please let me know.

Thanks again and God Bless.
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parvenu74 said:
Council of Trent, I would think.

In short, if you’re not Catholic, your only shot at salvation hinges on Baptism of Desire or invincible ignorance. Only God can judge such cases but if you’re the person in such a situation and you know it, I’m somewhat certain you’re guilty of presumption if you don’t become a good, practicing Catholic in short order. In all cases, salvation comes from the Catholic Church and only from the Catholic Church. Anyone saying otherwise is going to find themselves on the nasty side of several anathemas published throughout the ages. That’s why the teaching of the Church has always been to be Baptized and follow the Ten Commandments and the Commandments of the Church.
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Are you saying then that Methodists, Lutherans, Jehovas Witness, Non-denom, etc. are not going to Heaven?? What about the Orthodox church who does not submit to Papal authority?
 
inchrist101 said:
Are you saying then that Methodists, Lutherans, Jehovas Witness, Non-denom, etc. are not going to Heaven?? What about the Orthodox church who does not submit to Papal authority?
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The Church’s teaching is that if you, through not fault of your own (e.g. invincible ignorance) do not come into the Catholic Church then you still have the possibility of obtaining salvation. However, if you choose not to come into the Church after you have sufficient knowledge, not to mention grace, to realize it is the Church founded by Christ, then you are placing your soul in danger of hell. The same thing can be said of Catholics who leave, whether physically or spiritually, the Church.
 
gsaman said:
Does anyone know of any papal writings that talk about non Catholics being able to be get to heaven? **I know Vatican II talks about this **but I am looking for things written before Vatican II that specifically say people outside the Church have at least a chance of getting to heaven.
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What specifically in Vatican II are you referring to?
 
inchrist101 said:
Are you saying then that Methodists, Lutherans, Jehovas Witness, Non-denom, etc. are not going to Heaven?? What about the Orthodox church who does not submit to Papal authority?
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This is the most authoritative citation the Catholic Church has expressed with regard to EENS.

Everything listed above that is contrary to this statement is either flat out wrong, vague or completely speculative private opinion.

THIS IS THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Accept it.

*"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, **unless before **death they are joined with Her; and that **so important is the unity **of this ecclesiastical body that **only those remaining within this **unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and **they alone **can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. **No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood *for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
 
GerardP said:
This is the most authoritative citation the Catholic Church has expressed with regard to EENS.

Everything listed above that is contrary to this statement is either flat out wrong, vague or completely speculative private opinion.

THIS IS THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Accept it.

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, **unless before **death they are joined with Her; and that **so important is the unity **of this ecclesiastical body that **only those remaining within this **unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and **they alone **can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. **No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood **for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
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Thank you Gerard, I have been discussing this with my sister who married outside the Faith. I have told her that this has been a doctrine of the church from the Beginning.
 
GerardP said:
This is the most authoritative citation the Catholic Church has expressed with regard to EENS.

Everything listed above that is contrary to this statement is either flat out wrong, vague or completely speculative private opinion.

THIS IS THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Accept it.

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, **unless before **death they are joined with Her; and that **so important is the unity **of this ecclesiastical body that **only those remaining within this **unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and **they alone **can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. **No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood **for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
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Right, this is because salvation comes from the Divine Head through the Body. But, Florence and Trent both anathemitize those who say the Baptisms of heretics is invalid and both teach that Baptism is the door by which we enter the Church.

Likewise, it is the constant tradition that mistake will not separate one from the Church, but heresy must be an obstinate choice.
 
I just wanted to add, that Pope Benedict basically said the same thing a few months ago without qualification (but it also belongs to Tradition, and therefore all things must be read in that light, that a good faith mistake does not make one culpable):

vatican.va/holy_father/be…070606_en.html

Indeed, the Church was easily his favourite subject. Cyprian distinguished between the* visible, *hierarchical *Church *and the *invisible *mystical *Church *but forcefully affirmed that the Church is one, founded on Peter.

He never wearied of repeating that “if a man deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, does he think that he is in the Church?” (cf.* De unit. [On the unity of the Catholic Church], *4).

Cyprian knew well that “outside the Church there is no salvation”, and said so in strong words (Epistles 4, 4 and 73, 21); and he knew that “no one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as mother” (*De unit., *6). An indispensable characteristic of the Church is unity, symbolized by Christ’s seamless garment (*ibid., *7): Cyprian said, this unity is founded on Peter (*ibid., *4), and its perfect fulfilment in the Eucharist (*Epistle *63, 13).

“God is one and Christ is one”, Cyprian cautioned, “and his Church is one, and the faith is one, and the Christian people is joined into a substantial unity of body by the cement of concord. Unity cannot be severed. And what is one by its nature cannot be separated” (De unit., 23).
 
Aquinas74 said:
Thank you Gerard, I have been discussing this with my sister who married outside the Faith. I have told her that this has been a doctrine of the church from the Beginning.
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What I don’t understand is the refusal to accept the truth of the matter.

How can there be a “Baptism of Blood” as described in any Catechism when a Pope has infallibly stated that:

no one outside the Church can be saved. Because only inside the Church can someone benefit from the Sacraments to the point of salvation?

And that even pouring your blood out in Christ’s name will not save you if you are not in the unity that the Pope defined as “so important.”

To believe otherwise diminishes the importance of the sacraments.
 
GerardP said:
What I don’t understand is the refusal to accept the truth of the matter.

How can there be a “Baptism of Blood” as described in any Catechism when a Pope has infallibly stated that:

no one outside the Church can be saved. Because only inside the Church can someone benefit from the Sacraments to the point of salvation?

And that even pouring your blood out in Christ’s name will not save you if you are not in the unity that the Pope defined as “so important.”

To believe otherwise diminishes the importance of the sacraments.
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I don’t know Gerard, often in this crazy world we live people try to rationalize things instead of being obedient. I thank Almight God that I am a Catholic and pray that my Brother in Law will accept the truth.
 
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