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steido01
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Friend, no one has insulted anyone here. Simply stating the state of Roman Catholic-Lutheran dialogues today. It’s different than it was from the 1970’s and even the 1990’s.
Should Lutherans and Catholics "Engage Together in Catechesis?
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SteveVH
Guest
You obviously have never been to my parish. The stodgiest hymns I have ever heard were at a Lutheran service. I was ready to poke my eyes out with a fork. But I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Haas, et al.
(In full disclosure, I am a music minister at my parish and so just a tad bias.)
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SteveVH
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I agree with your assessment.I can’t imagine the Roman Catholic Magistrium would be particularly pleased knowing that their catechumens were being taught by a “Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Scripture Alone” Lutheran pastor. Nor would Lutheran pastors agree to allow a Roman Catholic priest to teach their catechumens about the ‘benefits’ of indulgences.
I’d take another read. These sorts of things are always written with the underlying idea that two sides come together where they can, and go their separate ways where they cannot. Given the paragraph’s context, it seems the focus is more on cooperating in our worldly care for our fellow man than on agreement on doctrine. These things we can essentially agree need to take place: “evangelization, peace and justice ventures, social ministry” Of course we should care for the poor in wealth and spirit together.
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SteveVH
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May I remind you that the Catholic Church promotes unity among Catholics and Mormons insofar as they can work together to promote the public good, such as in protecting our religious liberties.
The Catholic Church will never, I repeat, never accept the ordination of women. It is a dogma of our faith. For that reason alone we will never be united until ELCA changes its views. And that is only one obstacle.
I appreciate your sentiments, but the reality is that we are very far away from any real unity,
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House_Harkonnen
Guest
Not at all.
Confessional synods like the WELS and LCMS are much more able to engage the Catholic Church because we agree on moral issues. Abortion, gay marriage, women pastors etc. We are for the most part on the same page.
The liberal synods will never get any farther than “let’s play nice”. But there is not going to be any concord about moral issues. Since the liberal synods are practically sprinting in the opposite direction on these issues.
If I were still a Catholic, the last thing I would want is my little catholic children being taught by a so called Lutheran pastor that God approves of their homosexual union, and their abortion etc. That would be enough to send me running for the hills.
On the other hand, I as a confessional Lutheran would be happy to have my kids taught by an orthodox Catholic, especially on moral issues. I would simply correct the errors they taught regarding justification and sola Scriptura at home. But moral issues I can get behind.
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SteveVH
Guest
Well said.
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trevorhall
Guest
Ironically, I was a “catechist” in my Lutheran congregation. The more I studied historical theology to help teach the class, the more I realized that there remained nothing to protest. Sola Scriptura fell first during investigation of why Lutherans rejected the papacy. Once Sola Fide fell, the Holy Spirit reeled me in.
That said, I don’t know the answer, except to say that the Lutheran tradition provided a bridge for me from pentecostal to the Church that Christ founded. God bless you all!
That said, I don’t know the answer, except to say that the Lutheran tradition provided a bridge for me from pentecostal to the Church that Christ founded. God bless you all!
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commenter
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For 50 years there have been all kinds of dialogues between the Catholic Church and various groups of Protestants, Mormons, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, as well as Communists, Secular Humanists, and others. In most dialogues there is some kind of statement that Catholics and “X” should explore ways to cooperate on social concerns, recognized our commonality on matters of theology or at least ethics, etc. The Catholic Church keeps dialoguing even when the other party is gradually moving to positions farther and farther away from Catholicism.
These matters deserve some attention, but are infinitely less important than the Catechism as far as judging the position of the Catholic Church. The Vatican was engaging in dialogue with the Anglicans before, during and after the establishment of the Ordinariates, for instance. The Church’s statements on prolife, religious liberty, or marriage between a man and woman, come from far more authoritative sources than the people doing dialogue. In fact, church leaders taking some Lutheran bodies farther and farther away from Catholicism likely are higher in leadership than Lutherans in the dialogues. They deserve attention, but not equal attention. For ecumenism in the real world, I am likely to ask who is standing next to us outside the abortion clinic or religious freedom rally? There’s a good place to start, probably a Baptist or Assembly of God, maybe LCMS.
I don’t minimize dialogue, including dialogue with Communists, or Mormons. I just think it has different significance than the original poster is trying to maintain on this (and countless earlier) threads.
These matters deserve some attention, but are infinitely less important than the Catechism as far as judging the position of the Catholic Church. The Vatican was engaging in dialogue with the Anglicans before, during and after the establishment of the Ordinariates, for instance. The Church’s statements on prolife, religious liberty, or marriage between a man and woman, come from far more authoritative sources than the people doing dialogue. In fact, church leaders taking some Lutheran bodies farther and farther away from Catholicism likely are higher in leadership than Lutherans in the dialogues. They deserve attention, but not equal attention. For ecumenism in the real world, I am likely to ask who is standing next to us outside the abortion clinic or religious freedom rally? There’s a good place to start, probably a Baptist or Assembly of God, maybe LCMS.
I don’t minimize dialogue, including dialogue with Communists, or Mormons. I just think it has different significance than the original poster is trying to maintain on this (and countless earlier) threads.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
I’d like you to reference an ecumenical effort comparable to the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue that has come to similar conclusions *.
It is very telling that when some posters don’t agree with their own church or other related church bodies that they immediate find excuses or convoluted explanations for discrediting their own Church’s efforts.
So Roman Catholics are suggesting inter-communion with "Communists and Mormons?
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benjohnson
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When we Lutherans boast of our hymns - we’re usually mentally comparing “On Eagles’ Wings” vs Handle’s Messiah, so we tend to go overboard patting ourselves on the back.You obviously have never been to my parish. The stodgiest hymns I have ever heard were at a Lutheran service. I was ready to poke my eyes out with a fork. But I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Haas, et al.
(In full disclosure, I am a music minister at my parish and so just a tad bias.)
Sounds like your parish is blessed to have you!
If ever Catholics and Lutherans could agree on something, I’m afraid it would be a Auto-da-fé for Mr. Marty Haugen’s pernicious infiltration of both our Hymnals.
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benjohnson
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Well said.
About 30% of the children in our LCMS school are Catholic - and frankly the thrive in their Catholic faith. For a while, we were blessed to have a Catholic Sunday school teacher.
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Per_Crucem
Guest
Yes, the point of ecumenical dialogues like that is common welfare. Heck, we can march with Muslims and atheists and whomever else, on issues like abortion, the sanctity of marriage, et al. Social unity never equates to theological unity. Granted, we have unity with Catholics through our common baptism that we don’t share with non-believers.
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EvangelCatholic
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One thing I have learned from reading several posts is that if the people I am interacting with don’t even consider me a Christian than any commonality and enthusiasm for discussing the faith is missing. “Communists” 
I become increasingly ashamed of associating with those on this forum.
I become increasingly ashamed of associating with those on this forum.
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House_Harkonnen
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A Catholic Sunday school teacher at a Lutheran church? That’s interesting.
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Per_Crucem
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No one called you a non-Christian. What I said was in reference to some LWF church bodies. Not all LWF church bodies are as bad. The North American Lutheran Church has applied for membership in the LWF and I would consider them fellow Christians, as well as some remaining LWF churches in Africa and other parts of the world.One thing I have learned from reading several posts is that if the people I am interacting with don’t even consider me a Christian than any commonality and enthusiasm for discussing the faith is missing. “Communists”
I become increasingly ashamed of associating with those on this forum.
If a church body considers it acceptable to dismember an unborn child in the womb, sorry, I can’t consider that a Christian church. Faith in Jesus is not compatible to a view that states it is morally acceptable to destroy His innocent creation in certain situations.
Ditto to marriage as well.
No amount of pie in the sky hopefulness for unification with other believers will overcome real obstacles. You can talk about kumbaya-ing with Catholics until the cows come home but they will never accept your positions on moral issues. If ELCA Lutherans all became Catholic they still wouldn’t be able to receive communion while holding pro-gay marriage/pro-choice views. It is mortal sin to them (and rightly so). Why is it every believing Catholic and Lutheran in this discussion can see this?
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House_Harkonnen
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benjohnson
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She was really awesome too - she would come over from Mass with her daughters and teach the 6th grade class. She’s fought cancer and is doing well - she has our prayers and love.
I’m sure there’s an interesting story there, I’ll try to find out.
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VanSensei
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No. I think an Ordinariate for interested Lutherans would be better, though.
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commenter
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I have read that a Lutheran Ordinariate had been tentatively discussed in the last 3 years. It might happen, but only if requested by Lutheran individuals, or former Lutherans who converted to Catholic. The difference between the Anglican experience and Lutherans is that Anglicans had nothing like the LCMS, a strong, orthodox, permanent structure with a long history and national coverage (along with international partners). The Anglican alternatives - the Continuum, ACNA, perhaps others) are orthodox but still very fragile, quite new. If the Anglicans had a strong option like the LCMS, there would have been less demand for the Ordinariate. Apart from the orthodoxy issue, are there features - Lutheran “patrimony” so to speak - specific to ELCA’s Lutheran heritage, that are not part of LCMS’ heritage? For instance, would there be any orthodox individuals in ELCA, who would look at the LCMS and say I agree with their strong doctrine, but I would never be comfortable with their style of worship, or LCMS-specific something else?
To return to the OP, is there any ongoing reunification talks between ELCA and LCMS, or efforts to expand cooperative efforts in catechesis, social ministry, between those 2 church bodies? It seems like the small bridges should be built before consideration of much longer bridges.
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VanSensei
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The LCMS and ELCA will never reunify. There’s way too many theological, moral and social differences to really consider it at this point. They’re almost two completely different denominations.
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