Should Lutherans and Catholics "Engage Together in Catechesis?

[mlz]

If I were to receive Holy Communion from a Lutheran pastor (is that even possible??), would I not be automatically excommunicating myself from the Catholic Church? Why would I want to do that??

Sure, a Lutheran can proclaim the Gospel. So can an unaffiliated agnostic, or even, I’d imagine, a Buddhist. Administer the Holy Sacraments, though…hmmm…I don’t think so.

I’m sure a Lutheran pastor can prepare and deliver a mighty sermon. Kudos to him if that be the case. But, in the Catholic Church, the focus is, or should be if it isn’t, on the Eucharist—not on the sermon.

I agree with this last statement about the Catholic Church’s focus on the Eucharist not the sermon. Something I learned to be a difference from when I was Lutheran and became Catholic.

mlz

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Some thoughts:

This thread is about the international Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue that most recently produced the document, ’From Conflict to Communion”. Studying these 50 years of in-depth discussion between Lutheran and Catholic theologians and bishops from the United States, the conclusions have been both astonishing and quite promising.

Coinciding with the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue, various Lutheran jurisdictions in Europe and north America, have enacted Church polity related to gender and human sexuality; namely female priests/ bishops and recognition of loving homosexual relationships.

It is quite noteworthy that the Roman Catholic Church, in spite of opposition to woman clergy and homosexual marriage, never ceased in maintaining close ties with Lutherans such as the Church of Sweden and the ELCA. In-fact, the partners throughout these 50+ years of sharing and rejoicing in convergence of doctrine have been primarily these very Synods/ state churches of Lutheranism and the Vatican.

Why would the Roman Catholic Church continue the effort and then produce a document urging that these Lutherans could take holy Communion at a Catholic Mass and, in-fact, proposing unification of Lutherans and Catholics?

Some Lutherans on this forum would suggest that the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue is not valid and point out that the Missouri Synod is starting a new dialogue with Rome even though the LCMS is not even allowed to pray with Roman Catholics. Those deep theological sessions of “confessional” Lutherans and Catholics can not even start with prayer!

The Roman Catholic Church, per this thread’s document, is urging Lutheran pastors and bishops to go on retreat together and for laity to study the Catholic faith together. The Lutherans identified in the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue are the ELCA not the LCMS. Why is that when considering the ELCA’s practice of ordaining women and allowing gay pastors?

One Lutheran poster from a North American diocese of a total of 16 parishes, claims that nearly all other Lutherans are not even Christian! A seemingly sad irony of a self-proclaimed Christian on CAF in conflict with Pope Francis who states:

“Religion has the right to express its opinion in the service of the people,” Francis told Jesuit Roman journal La Civilta Cattolica in an interview published Thursday and previewed by CNN. “But God in creation set us free: it is not possible to interfere spiritually in the life of a person.”
nytimes.com/2013/09/20/world/europe/pope-bluntly-faults-churchs-focus-on-gays-and-abortion.html?_r=0

The Roman Catholic Church is in dialogue with many different groups, including those non Christian religions. Can there be much agreement other than “let’s play nice”? Its good to agree to play nice, but what advancements will be made other than that?

Is your denomination willing to stop ordaining women and homosexuals to the ministry? Is the RC willing to start ordaining women and homosexuals to the ministry?

I don’t foresee either as a possibility. With fundamental moral differences such as this, how much concord are you expecting?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The Roman Catholic Church is in dialogue with many different groups, including those non Christian religions. Can there be much agreement other than “let’s play nice”? Its good to agree to play nice, but what advancements will be made other than that?

Is your denomination willing to stop ordaining women and homosexuals to the ministry? Is the RC willing to start ordaining women and homosexuals to the ministry?

I don’t foresee either as a possibility. With fundamental moral differences such as this, how much concord are you expecting?

But you don’t address the questions. The Pontifical Council on Promoting Christian Unity resulted in the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity. Female Lutheran bishops have been part of delegations meeting with the Popes. The Catholic response regarding anthropological and ethical issues is clear yet the Dialogue continues and the proposal are unlike any other ecumenical accords.

It may be difficult for some Lutherans and Catholics to accept but unity continues to be the tangible expectations of these remarkable convergences on the holy Catholic faith.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

But you don’t address the questions. The Pontifical Council on Promoting Christian Unity resulted in the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity. Female Lutheran bishops have been part of delegations meeting with the Popes. The Catholic response regarding anthropological and ethical issues is clear yet the Dialogue continues and the proposal are unlike any other ecumenical accords.

It may be difficult for some Lutherans and Catholics to accept but unity continues to be the tangible expectations of these remarkable convergences on the holy Catholic faith.

How can there be unity when such vast disagreements exist?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

How can there be unity when such vast disagreements exist?

You may ask why Christians should pursue the Gospel? Am I the only one on this forum who has gay grandchildren?

 

[House_Harkonnen]

You may ask why Christians should pursue the Gospel? Am I the only one on this forum who has gay grandchildren?

The gospel is not about compromising with sin. Or making sinners feel comfortable in their sinful state.

The Roman Catholic bishops have refused to compromise on these ethical and moral issues, this is to their credit.

“I agree with you on about 80 percent of what you believe” is not unity.

“I will never accept your gay minister, or female bishop” is not unity.

 

[Stilldreamn]

You may ask why Christians should pursue the Gospel? Am I the only one on this forum who has gay grandchildren?

While none of my children or grandchildren has identified themselves as gay, they most assuredly are sinful in other ways - we are a whole family of broken, sinful people. I have had difficult conversations over cohabitation with some. It’s hard to tell your kids or grandkids that just because society affirms something, it doesn’t follow that God does.

The Law shows us our sin, our need for repentence and forgiveness. Christ heals us - that is the Gospel.

 

[Peter_J]

While none of my children or grandchildren has identified themselves as gay, they most assuredly are sinful in other ways - we are a whole family of broken, sinful people. I have had difficult conversations over cohabitation with some. It’s hard to tell your kids or grandkids that just because society affirms something, it doesn’t follow that God does.

The Law shows us our sin, our need for repentence and forgiveness. Christ heals us - that is the Gospel.

Indeed. Quite frankly, some (not all) conservative statements that single out gays (or as some Catholics prefer to say, people with same-sex attraction) make me cringe.

 

[Peter_J]

The Roman Catholic Church is in dialogue with many different groups, including those non Christian religions.

…

In this case, I see it as a bit mixed: On the one hand, we (Catholics) are enthusiastic about dialogue with the LWF because Catholicism and Lutheranism are fairly close; on the other hand, you could say that we dialogue with the LWF in spite of our liberal/conservative disagreements.

Having said that, it must also be said that we appreciate the LWF’s enthusiasm for dialogue with Catholics. (You’ve probably noticed that some Catholic posters here are quite negative toward the “unecumenical”, or whatever you want to call it, attitude of e.g. LCMS and a lot of the Eastern Orthodox.)

 

[steido01]

Why would the Roman Catholic Church continue the effort and then produce a document urging that these Lutherans could take holy Communion at a Catholic Mass and, in-fact, proposing unification of Lutherans and Catholics?

I think it’s important to bear in mind that the documents you refer to, when they are accepted by Rome, are accepted with caveats. No Roman Catholic clergyman would, under normal circumstances, allow shared communion with Lutherans. Unification may very well be a long-term goal, but it is not yet possible - and certainly not ‘urged’ at this point. The kindness and patience of the Roman Catholic Church in its dealings with its ecumenical partners ought not to be misunderstood as turning a blind eye to the liberal theology of the self, IMHO.

Some Lutherans on this forum would suggest that the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue is not valid and point out that the Missouri Synod is starting a new dialogue with Rome even though the LCMS is not even allowed to pray with Roman Catholics. Those deep theological sessions of “confessional” Lutherans and Catholics can not even start with prayer!

Whoa, now. The Lutheran-Catholic dialogue is a tremendous milestone in Lutheran-Catholic relations; it simply isn’t the end-all-be-all that you assert it to be. That’s all we’re saying. More importantly, you are simply wrong when you state that LCMSers can’t pray with other Christians. Wrong. We cannot fully worship together, sure (Roman Catholics believe the same) - but we can and do pray together (Otherwise, we wouldn’t pray with the Pope!). I’ve explained this to you several times before, so I cannot grant you ignorance here; please “do not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.”

The Roman Catholic Church, per this thread’s document, is urging Lutheran pastors and bishops to go on retreat together and for laity to study the Catholic faith together.

Yes, when it is appropriate to do so. It would not be appropriate for a Lutheran pastor to teach Sola Scriptura to a Roman Catholic (from the Roman Catholic perspective, anyway ). Similarly, it would be inappropriate for an ELCA pastrix to teach a Roman Catholic that female ordination and homosexual “marriages” are God-pleasing. What is appropriate is that they teach Christ crucified - that our one God loved the world so much that He became man and died for our sins.

The Lutherans identified in the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue are the ELCA not the LCMS.

Again, wrong and you know it. The LCMS has taken part in all but one round (Round X) of the dialogues.

Why is that when considering the ELCA’s practice of ordaining women and allowing gay pastors?

That is a question that many have been asking.

“Religion has the right to express its opinion in the service of the people,” Francis told Jesuit Roman journal La Civilta Cattolica in an interview published Thursday and previewed by CNN. “But God in creation set us free: it is not possible to interfere spiritually in the life of a person.”
nytimes.com/2013/09/20/world/europe/pope-bluntly-faults-churchs-focus-on-gays-and-abortion.html?_r=0

I’m thinking of a phrase from The Princess Bride…

 

[MichaelinMD]

Dialogue is a way for us of different communions to discover how close and how far we are from each other, and to explore ways to work towards reunification. Not a darned thing wrong with that. What would be wrong, imo, would be for us to make compromises on matters of dogma, doctrine, and morals in order to “accommodate” the sensitivities and sensibilities of other communions.

Engaging in catechesis with each other, unless, as I said earlier, it is orthodox Catholic catechesis, is a recipe for disaster. For Catholics to commune those of other faiths who do not fully accept Catholic dogma and doctrine is also a recipe for disaster.

(None of this, btw, has anything directly to do with whether someone has “gay” inclinations or same sex attraction. If we’re Catholic, we know (or should know) that it is gay sexual activity that is sinful and should be treated as any other sin–you know…repented of, confessed, and refrained from.)

 

[GKC]

I think it’s important to bear in mind that the documents you refer to, when they are accepted by Rome, are accepted with caveats. No Roman Catholic clergyman would, under normal circumstances, allow shared communion with Lutherans. Unification may very well be a long-term goal, but it is not yet possible - and certainly not ‘urged’ at this point. The kindness and patience of the Roman Catholic Church in its dealings with its ecumenical partners ought not to be misunderstood as turning a blind eye to the liberal theology of the self, IMHO.

Whoa, now. The Lutheran-Catholic dialogue is a tremendous milestone in Lutheran-Catholic relations; it simply isn’t the end-all-be-all that you assert it to be. That’s all we’re saying. More importantly, you are simply wrong when you state that LCMSers can’t pray with other Christians. Wrong. We cannot fully worship together, sure (Roman Catholics believe the same) - but we can and do pray together (Otherwise, we wouldn’t pray with the Pope!). I’ve explained this to you several times before, so I cannot grant you ignorance here; please “do not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.”

Yes, when it is appropriate to do so. It would not be appropriate for a Lutheran pastor to teach Sola Scriptura to a Roman Catholic (from the Roman Catholic perspective, anyway ). Similarly, it would be inappropriate for an ELCA pastrix to teach a Roman Catholic that female ordination and homosexual “marriages” are God-pleasing. What is appropriate is that they teach Christ crucified - that our one God loved the world so much that He became man and died for our sins.

Again, wrong and you know it. The LCMS has taken part in all but one round (Round X) of the dialogues.

That is a question that many have been asking.

I’m thinking of a phrase from The Princess Bride…

I know! “I’m not left-handed either!”

 

[steido01]

I know! “I’m not left-handed either!”

Clever fellow. I lol’d.

 

[Peter_J]

But that’s not the same thing.

 

[mlz]

Ironically, I was a “catechist” in my Lutheran congregation. The more I studied historical theology to help teach the class, the more I realized that there remained nothing to protest. Sola Scriptura fell first during investigation of why Lutherans rejected the papacy. Once Sola Fide fell, the Holy Spirit reeled me in.

That said, I don’t know the answer, except to say that the Lutheran tradition provided a bridge for me from pentecostal to the Church that Christ founded. God bless you all!

I understand what you are saying as this has been my experience as well!
mlz

 

[mlz]

For 50 years there have been all kinds of dialogues between the Catholic Church and various groups of Protestants, Mormons, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, as well as Communists, Secular Humanists, and others. In most dialogues there is some kind of statement that Catholics and “X” should explore ways to cooperate on social concerns, recognized our commonality on matters of theology or at least ethics, etc. The Catholic Church keeps dialoguing even when the other party is gradually moving to positions farther and farther away from Catholicism.

These matters deserve some attention, but are infinitely less important than the Catechism as far as judging the position of the Catholic Church. The Vatican was engaging in dialogue with the Anglicans before, during and after the establishment of the Ordinariates, for instance. The Church’s statements on prolife, religious liberty, or marriage between a man and woman, come from far more authoritative sources than the people doing dialogue. In fact, church leaders taking some Lutheran bodies farther and farther away from Catholicism likely are higher in leadership than Lutherans in the dialogues. They deserve attention, but not equal attention. For ecumenism in the real world, I am likely to ask who is standing next to us outside the abortion clinic or religious freedom rally? There’s a good place to start, probably a Baptist or Assembly of God, maybe LCMS.

I don’t minimize dialogue, including dialogue with Communists, or Mormons. I just think it has different significance than the original poster is trying to maintain on this (and countless earlier) threads./QUOTE

I agree.

mlz

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The Lutheran-Catholic Dialogues share historic accords of how Lutherans can now go beyond Luther since his issues with the papacy no longer apply:

1. Lutherans

1. Openness to a rightly exercised primacy is part of the Lutheran theological legacy. The Lutheran Reformers’ rejection of the papacy focused on “the concrete historical papacy as it confronted them in their day” rather than on the very idea of a universal ministry of unity.119 In Against the Papacy in Rome, Instituted by the Devil (1545), perhaps his sharpest writing against the papacy, Luther nevertheless affirms that the pope might have a primacy of “honor and superiority” and "of oversight over teaching and heresy in the church."120 This “conditional openness” to papal primacy is dependent upon a reformed papacy, subject to the gospel, that would not arbitrarily restrict Christian freedom.121

1. The Lutheran argument did not merely contest abuses, however; it also challenged the alleged jure divino character of the papacy. Philip Melanchthon added to his subscription to the Smalcald Articles that, if the pope “would allow the gospel,” the papacy’s “superiority over the bishops” could be granted jure humano.122 Historical criticism has significantly altered understandings of divine and human law and criteria for distinguishing them.123 Especially in relation to the papacy, but also in relation to other traditionally controversial questions relating to ministry, the categories of divine and human law need to be re-examined and placed in the context of ministry as service to the koinonia of salvation.
   usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/koinonia-of-salvation.cfm

 

[JonNC]

The Lutheran-Catholic Dialogues share historic accords of how Lutherans can now go beyond Luther since his issues with the papacy no longer apply:

1. Lutherans

1. Openness to a rightly exercised primacy is part of the Lutheran theological legacy. The Lutheran Reformers’ rejection of the papacy focused on “the concrete historical papacy as it confronted them in their day” rather than on the very idea of a universal ministry of unity.119 In Against the Papacy in Rome, Instituted by the Devil (1545), perhaps his sharpest writing against the papacy, Luther nevertheless affirms that the pope might have a primacy of “honor and superiority” and "of oversight over teaching and heresy in the church."120 This “conditional openness” to papal primacy is dependent upon a reformed papacy, subject to the gospel, that would not arbitrarily restrict Christian freedom.121

1. The Lutheran argument did not merely contest abuses, however; it also challenged the alleged jure divino character of the papacy. Philip Melanchthon added to his subscription to the Smalcald Articles that, if the pope “would allow the gospel,” the papacy’s “superiority over the bishops” could be granted jure humano.122 Historical criticism has significantly altered understandings of divine and human law and criteria for distinguishing them.123 Especially in relation to the papacy, but also in relation to other traditionally controversial questions relating to ministry, the categories of divine and human law need to be re-examined and placed in the context of ministry as service to the koinonia of salvation.
   usccb.org/beliefs-and-tea…-salvation.cfm

I actually agree with the statement, though not entirely with your take on it. A few of Luther’s issues with the papacy still do apply, at least in some manner. Universal ordinary jurisdiction is, clearly, still an issue. What I personally don’t think applies anymore is “papacy as anti-Christ”.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I actually agree with the statement, though not entirely with your take on it. A few of Luther’s issues with the papacy still do apply, at least in some manner. Universal ordinary jurisdiction is, clearly, still an issue. What I personally don’t think applies anymore is “papacy as anti-Christ”.

Jon

Yes, there are areas of disagreement or emphasis but not ‘church-dividing’ per my reading. Speaking of reading, is anyone familiar with Msgr. John Radano book, ‘Lutheran and Catholic Reconciliation on Justification’?

 

[gcnuss]

As usual, I’m about a week behind in joining this discussion.

From my perspective, I am in favor of Lutheran and Catholic clergy getting together for theological discussions and for seeking to come closer together in our shared mission of proclaiming the Gospel. I recognize that we do have differences that cannot be ignored, but we do share our belief in the salvation that comes only through our Lord, Jesus Christ and that should be the basis of all our conversations.

I remain a Lutheran because I have not been convinced that I should be anywhere else. At the same time, like many of my fellow members of the ELCA, I am torn by the recent changes in teaching regarding issues of sexuality. While that has not led to my departure, it means that I am at odds with the leadership, and with the stated policy, of the ELCA.

I appreciate all the discussion that goes on here. It enriches my faith and my understanding of the Catholic Church, even if we don’t always agree.