Should you be punished for something that's not your fault?

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Flopfoot

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Reason this poll is in Apologetics is because I am trying to use results of it as part of an argument against the “all non-Christians go to hell” thing. But please, when you vote think in general terms, take the question at face value. I have a theory that it’s basically deep down inside everyone, part of everyone’s sense of fairness or maybe justice would be a better word for it, that people shouldn’t be punished for something that’s not their fault. That is what I’m trying to test with this poll. I’ve seen children, if they’re punished for something that is their fault then they get over it. But if they’re punished for something that’s not their fault, they will never let it go because I think they ‘know’ that they are being treated unjustly.
 
I believe that all souls CAN be converted- I think the reason they aren’t is that not enough people pray for them, and not enough people evangelize, and not enough people who do know the true Faith always strive to grow in holiness (holiness attracts others). I do not know if souls that do not know Christ will go to heaven, but why would someone who does not know God join him and be happy with him in heaven forever? I do not believe in limbo for unbaptized babies, but I wonder- maybe that is what happens ti those who never know the true God, but honestly strive to live a moral life, and seek the truth with all their hearts. I’ve wondered about this before, and really can’t say I’ve taken a position on it yet.

No, I don’t think they will be punished- God is all just, and it would be unjust to expect someone to know something they were never taught, however, I don’t know if they will see God or not.
 
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Flopfoot:
Reason this poll is in Apologetics is because I am trying to use results of it as part of an argument against the “all non-Christians go to hell” thing. But please, when you vote think in general terms, take the question at face value. I have a theory that it’s basically deep down inside everyone, part of everyone’s sense of fairness or maybe justice would be a better word for it, that people shouldn’t be punished for something that’s not their fault. That is what I’m trying to test with this poll. I’ve seen children, if they’re punished for something that is their fault then they get over it. But if they’re punished for something that’s not their fault, they will never let it go because I think they ‘know’ that they are being treated unjustly.
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Its not clear to me what you are talking about. Are you asking if non-Catholics will be saved or not?
The Church already teaches that those through no fault of their own do not know and do not have the opportunity to learn about Christ can be saved if they live a life that even in ignorance is according to his teaching.
 
I voted yes because we must now imitate Jesus who suffered without any fault. And His suffering was to our benefit.

It reminds me of when God told the Jews that since they were strangers in Egypt and were taken in, that they now must take in strangers also. And then, after God killed the firstborn of Egyptians and animals in the tenth plague, God told the Jews that from then on out they have to ransom their firstborn to God also.

God is fair. Once He does something for us, then we also have to do likewise in order to participate in His eternal life.

Thus, since God has now suffered and died for us sinners without having any guilt, we too must suffer and die, preferably without any guilt, and preferably for the benefit of sinners (including the ones who falsely accuse us). But if we have guilt, we have even less reason to complain since we deserve it. (Though we can complain to ourselves that we were not suffering innocently and thus were not fully rendering God His due nor helping our neighbor, though we can make up for it by accepting our punishment patiently).

hurst
 
Hey all,

I voted no, but in truth the answer is yes. You can double sin through scandle. I live with my g/f and her two kids. And everything else in my life is kosher, except this sin in living out of the bonds of matrimony. This causes the ripple effect of causing tongues to wag (espcially in this small town) and thus causing my brother to sin through my fault. It doesn’t seem fair that this gets lumped back on me.

emp
 
Flopfoot,

I voted yes/sometimes because if you volunteer to take somebody else’s punishment you should (sometimes) be granted your wish. We have a great example of this in Jesus. “Never” is a very strong term.

The question of non-Christians and Hell is, in my mind, related to the question of AIDS babies. They inherited the disease from their mothers through no fault of their own, but they still need to deal with the consequences. Original sin is similar.
  • Liberian
 
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empacae:
Hey all,

I voted no, but in truth the answer is yes. You can double sin through scandle. I live with my g/f and her two kids. And everything else in my life is kosher, except this sin in living out of the bonds of matrimony. This causes the ripple effect of causing tongues to wag (espcially in this small town) and thus causing my brother to sin through my fault. It doesn’t seem fair that this gets lumped back on me.

emp
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I see you’re rather new here, so welcome!

Why do you feel it’s unfair that causing your brother to sin “gets lumped back on you”? I doubt you would ever directly counsel someone to do something immoral. Why should it be different when you do the same thing by example?
If you were an faithful married man you would certainly accept praise for being a good example, no?
 
didymus (luv the name),

No it is fair. Example of Chritiandom is done by living the Word not just by knowing the Word. It is just in my ape state of groping through existence it may sometimes feel unfair. And my way of trying to right myself while I may be listing right now my course is not complete and I am working to right my keel (so-to-speak). In the meantime I understand fully how and errored example is not a light to shine others. And even within matrimony I do not think praise for just doing my job as a father and husband to my family would be readily accepted by me…heh heh… I think I would be uncomfortably embarrased.

emp.
 
If you violate a traffic law through no fault of your own, is the officer correct to ignore your “sob” story and give you a ticket? He is unable to tell you apart from the liar. Or if you lose a concert ticket through no fault of your own, are they right to not let you in at the door? I think on *some *level, people are willing to accept consequences from things that are out of their control. If your father loses his right to succession to the throne of Xland, do you accept that as a result that you cannot ascend to the throne ever? If you have your eyes injured through no fault of your own, do you accept that you cannot fly airplanes?

Perhaps it depends on what the word “punishment” encompasses. Either that, or who is doing the punishing.
 
The question is not ‘can you accept it’. If your father loses the throne, etc., you’re not really being punished, you’re just not inheriting something you might have inherited. If a cop punishes you because he can’t tell you apart from a liar, that doesn’t mean it’s because you should have been punished, it’s because he doesn’t realise that you’re not supposed to be punished, so errs on one side of the decision. If you lose your sight by an accident, that’s an accident not a punishment.

As for all those who say, Jesus suffered, etc., well He chose to accept it but does that mean that what the soldiers, Pilate etc. did was right in any way? Hell no! They should not have been punishing Him as He commited no crime.

Thistle - I know what the Church teaches. I’m trying to form an argument to support this teaching against people who aren’t Catholics or don’t believe that teaching. This is my first bit, my foundation. Because if people will agree on this - that you shouldn’t be punished for something that’s not your fault - then all I have to do is prove that being sent to hell is a punishment, and that not knowing God if you were, say, an American Indian in the time before Christianity went to America, is not your fault.

Maybe people don’t understand what I’m asking here or maybe people just have a WAY different sense of fairness and justice to me.

Lemme give an example. Say a child in primary school was sick one day and is not at school. Hence he doesn’t know what homework is set. The next day he is punished for not doing the homework. Is that fair? Unless the child has been already told that it’s his job to find out what the homework is any day he is sick, in advance of this event, then no. What if the teacher gets another student to ring him and tell him what the homework is. But the sick child doesn’t believe the other child, especially since the homework set doesn’t actually sound very reasonable / believeable, and the child making the call is not trustworthy. Etc. This is supposed to be a sort of analogy to someone being expected to be Christian without having heard it directly from God (the teacher). Maybe not the best analogy in the world, but hopefully gets the idea across.
 
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Flopfoot:
The next day he is punished for not doing the homework. Is that fair?
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What do you mean by punished? I know that seems an odd question, but in my thinking about hell, it is one of the things I wrestle with. To go with the teacher bit, say the teacher has a policy in place that says she will assign 30 homework assignments, and she will drop your lowest or worst 10 scores, and not figure them in your grade. Also, if you don’t hand one in, it will count as one of the 10, because she doesn’t allow makeups. I know for a fact (adult) students will come in and argue, “Well, I want to keep my grade high, and I don’t want to waste a drop score on a HW that I didn’t hand in, so can I make it up anyway? This isn’t fair. I need a A!”

I don’t think this is an active sort of punishment if the teacher uses it as one of the drop scores and so their grade is impacted. It is more of a consequence based on a fact (of policy). It would be an active sort of punishment if you make them stand in the corner for not handing in the assignment. I’m trying to put this distinction into the analogy, so it may not be the greatest.

So, is hell always an active sort of punishment or is it a consequence of being unable to go to heaven? That might be one question to consider. Also, with God being this divine providence, omnipotent sort, can there ever be a distinction between the two ideas I am talking about that a creature of his readily might concede to recognize? Just thinking out loud about possible considerations under the current topic.
 
You are thinking in college or maybe high school terms. In primary school, as far as I remember (wow, it was almost 10 years ago), students couldn’t care less about their grades. Punishment meant something like detention or being made to write 100 ‘lines’ or something like that.

This was going to be the next thing I needed to talk about, but since you bring it up here… Hell is in fact a punishment. It’s not simply a matter of not being able to go to heaven. From the descriptions of it, hell is worse than Earth, and it is worse than not existing. Despite what some born again Christians think, hell is not the ‘default option’ nor is it ‘all that we deserve’. It couldn’t be - God is loving and His plan for man was never hell, and if man’s ‘default end’ became hell after the fall then I’m sure that God would just stop creating people because God does not want to condemn anyone. No, hell is a place for the “bad people”, the ones who have actually done something to deserve that punishment.

So if people shouldn’t be punished for something that’s not their fault, and if hell is certainly a punishment (only those who do something to deserve it go there), then all that’s left to prove is that being non-Christian is not a sin or a personal fault in itself in all cases. Then it can be shown that it is possible for non-Christians to go to heaven.

(You know the funny thing, all those Protestants, Evangelicals and etc. aren’t gonna change their minds just because I present what I think is a good argument to them, chances are they are as stubborn as me. But at least I’ll have something to say if/when they challenge me).
 
Flopfoot said:
(You know the funny thing, all those Protestants, Evangelicals and etc. aren’t gonna change their minds just because I present what I think is a good argument to them, chances are they are as stubborn as me. But at least I’ll have something to say if/when they challenge me).
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I know. Frequently a reasoned argument is unhelpful. Well, it can remove obstacles for people, but that isn’t all that is needed in most cases. For example, all sorts of repugnance issues come up with hell. I’ve known people to basically jettison the bible over this one issue. (all that worm dieth not stuff, etc.)

I’m thinking about what you said. Is it a consequence that people who die with only original sin (no personal sins, or maybe a few venial ones, but nothing mortal) must go to heaven?
 
I voted “NO” because I do enough on my own to get into hot water without being blamed for something I didn’t do! 😃
 
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