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Geldain
Guest
I heard an interesting bit of info yesterday: If France was one of the United States, it would be the 5th poorest state in the Union.
From where I sit, socialism = failure.
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WanderAimlessly
Guest
Socialism removes all responsibilty from the person and gives it to the state. This also removes the initiative that people have to improve themselves. It is the ultimate welfare state.
PF
PF
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MikeWM
Guest
Err, so what? Do we measure life in terms of how absolutely wealthy we are? I think Jesus had some things to say about that.
Now if we were talking about relative wealth, you’d have a sliver of a point. You’re better off earning $5 if a loaf of bread costs $1 than earning $10 if the loaf of bread costs $4. The second person is ‘richer’ in absolute terms but he is actually worse off.
What is the situation with relative wealth between France and the USA? I have no idea. But the absolute figures are meaningless.
Not to mention that happiness, contentment, the number of people in poverty, etc. are rather more important things than the exact number of $ in your bank account.
Finally, the current government in France is conservative. Try not to overlook this little fact
That’s nice. Try telling Sweden that. Or anyone in Britain who holds on dearly to our socialist NHS.
Mike
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Geldain
Guest
Yeah, those are the terms. Now and always…not
The point is, France, a nation who has been looking down it’s nose at the US for a while now is an economic failure, with unemployment at 23%.Errr…hmmm…
I will never know the relative wealth or anything since I reject all relativism.
That I can certainly agree with. One of the reasons I’ve gone out of my way to turn certain fiscal opportunities down over the course of my life is because I have never ever equated wealth with happiness.
Being conservative in France has no relationship with conservative in the US.Finally, the current government in France is conservative. Try not to overlook this little fact
Thank you. I was taught to speak as honestly as possible and try to incorporate that into my writing as best I can.
Until you’re taxed so heavily you can’t afford to do anything except go to the doctor, of course. Sweden…the nation 30 million people try to immigrate to illegally or legally every year. How could I forgetTry telling Sweden that. Or anyone in Britain who holds on dearly to our socialist NHS.
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MikeWM
Guest
Now that is a more meaningful figure, if it were true. Unfortunately everywhere I look it up I get 10% - higher than the USA, yes, but no need to exaggerate.Yeah, those are the terms. Now and always…not
That’s a bizarre point of view. Let me assure you that it matters to people all the world around. Things cost different amounts of money depending on what people earn in the first place.Good. So we agree that absolute wealth isn’t a useful indicator of people’s well-being.
It has some relationship, but you are partially correct. US conservatives are way to the right of French conservatives.
That’s ok, I’m not taxed as much as all that.
Sweden…the nation 30 million people try to immigrate to illegally or legally every year. How could I forget
You’re ignoring literally dozens of factors that affect immigration rates. Once more, it’s not just about money.Mike
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Marilena
Guest
If the OP is referring to Socialism when it comes to countries, that
is not necessarily true. My husband grew up in the DDR, and he
had a pretty good life to say the least. Their medical was paid for, so was their education. Everyone had jobs, there were no homeless people. Yes, you had to wait for a car for 12 years, but with all the environmental problems and global warming we face, that is not such a bad thing. Yes, you weren’t allowed to speak out against the government, but my husband never did anyways. He actually made about 1,000 German Marks every month. That was alot of money to earn in a socialist system. I do not like communism, but the only good thing to say about it was in the DDR, they were well looked after. Every East German I’ve met has never told me otherwise. That is why they tell me that they want the wall back up. Their lives were very good. Yes, they sacrificed their freedom, but for alot of East Germans today, that is a small price to pay for them to have stability back. ( what they see as stabilitiy that is )
is not necessarily true. My husband grew up in the DDR, and he
had a pretty good life to say the least. Their medical was paid for, so was their education. Everyone had jobs, there were no homeless people. Yes, you had to wait for a car for 12 years, but with all the environmental problems and global warming we face, that is not such a bad thing. Yes, you weren’t allowed to speak out against the government, but my husband never did anyways. He actually made about 1,000 German Marks every month. That was alot of money to earn in a socialist system. I do not like communism, but the only good thing to say about it was in the DDR, they were well looked after. Every East German I’ve met has never told me otherwise. That is why they tell me that they want the wall back up. Their lives were very good. Yes, they sacrificed their freedom, but for alot of East Germans today, that is a small price to pay for them to have stability back. ( what they see as stabilitiy that is )
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vern_humphrey
Guest
You say
The wall was not to keep West Germans out, it was to keep East Germans in. If the DDR was so great, why did they have to wall their country in?
You also mention pollution. Where are the most polluted sites in Germany?
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Della
Guest
Since the opening statement of this thread is: “Socialism makes people worse” not “socialism makes people secure,” I have to agree with it.
Socialism makes people into slaves of the state. As slaves it hardly matters if they fail or not. And to rob people of the right to fail is to rob people of their freedom.
And freedom means freedom to come up with new ideas–to try and try again until you get it right. It encourages creativity and resourcefulness.
The old adage that necessity is the mother of invention is absolutely true. Take people’s right to fail away from them and what you get is a lot of contented cows grazing in a field not people eager to learn, to invent, to create.
Socialism makes people into slaves of the state. As slaves it hardly matters if they fail or not. And to rob people of the right to fail is to rob people of their freedom.
And freedom means freedom to come up with new ideas–to try and try again until you get it right. It encourages creativity and resourcefulness.
The old adage that necessity is the mother of invention is absolutely true. Take people’s right to fail away from them and what you get is a lot of contented cows grazing in a field not people eager to learn, to invent, to create.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Socialism, by its very nature, exalts the state and suppresses the individual. Society is all, the individual is nothing – nothing but a servant of the state.
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bones_IV
Guest
vern humphrey:
Socialism stems from a Marxist kind of thought. He thought that man by himself is worthless. From where I sit, that is a bunch of hooey. He was half lying and half tellling the truth. But that’s the Devil’s plan. Mix truth with lies, scream it loud enough and long enough and eventually people will believe it. Marx is praised by many a socialogist. You wonder why our universities are so morally corrupt.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
That is correct – a man is worthless in the eyes of socialists. It is only “mankind” that has value. The individual must be suborndinated to the whole – which means of course, subordination to the ruling elite.
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Marilena
Guest
vern humphrey:
freely to the West. My husbands grandpa and his great grandma travelled there often when the wall was up.
I lived in East Berlin for 7 and a half months, met alot of East Germans there. The wall was built inside the DDR if you remember correctly. The west Berliners were built around. Not the other way around. My husband is the one to answer the pollution question. I raised the point because it was good that they had to wait 12 years for a car because the world is over polluted. imagine if we all had to wait 12 years for a car? Less environmental pollution in the world! By the way, older east Germans travelled
freely to the West. My husbands grandpa and his great grandma travelled there often when the wall was up.
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Marilena
Guest
If socialism in east Germany robs the people of their freedom, then why do a great majaority of East Germans want their old system back?
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Geldain
Guest
They do? You have evidence of this? Sure didn’t look like they were happy as they crossed the old line when the wall came down.
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Marilena
Guest
yup, i do. people we know very well in berlin as a matter of fact.
Not just them, but there was alot of dissatisfaction over the loss of jobs in the east. the harder times for people to live and cope outside
their former socialist life. my husbands mother is a prime example of
a person who wants the wall back up and permanent. my husband has alot friends who preferred the old way of life as opposed to the way it is now. these are hard working people who earn a good living.
they preferred the way it was. simply ask my husband if you refuse to believe me. he is a member here. look for Frank Fenn. pm and ask him. he lived there during the wall, and long after it came down.
ask him.
Not just them, but there was alot of dissatisfaction over the loss of jobs in the east. the harder times for people to live and cope outside
their former socialist life. my husbands mother is a prime example of
a person who wants the wall back up and permanent. my husband has alot friends who preferred the old way of life as opposed to the way it is now. these are hard working people who earn a good living.
they preferred the way it was. simply ask my husband if you refuse to believe me. he is a member here. look for Frank Fenn. pm and ask him. he lived there during the wall, and long after it came down.
ask him.
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Geldain
Guest
Respectfully, what you are offering is anecdotal evidence. Do you have a scientific poll to validate your assertion? A documented study?
If life was so good under the communists, why don’t you and other like minded people work to return things to the old days?
Are you Catholic? Were you able to worship freely under the old system?
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Marilena
Guest
Have you read my profile friend? Iam a catholic. Iam not a communist. Iam only telling you this from experience. Iam posting
links for you to see for yourself the situation in the east. Iam also not German, my husband is. He lived there, he experienced both socialism and capitalism. I hear it from his own lips, and those we knew in germany. Here is one link you can see:
No more complexes about West German superiority. No more blind faith in the Western economists. Forget Chancellor Kohl’s promises of prosperity. Seven years on, unification is turning into a disaster. In the East German regions, which have lost 70% of their industries, unemployment has reached 16%, twice the figure in West Germany. Fear of tomorrow has taken the place of visions of a rosy future. One sign is a 50% plunge in the birth rate.
Friedrich Schorlemmer, a former member of the Citizens’ Movement, has written a pamphlet attacking the system now imposed on the 16 million victims of East German history; he has called it “The ice age” (5). Work is now a privilege, the black marketeers rub their hands as unemployment rises, and three quarters of the population stand impassively side be side with the poor who make up the other quarter. Worse still, the East Germans as a whole have become marginalised politically as well as economically. They no longer have a say. After all, most of their political figures were eliminated in the consummate style of the cold war. And the slightest criticism is seen as nostalgia for the days of the German Democratic Republic (GDR), which is now branded a “second dictatorship”
In the same survey 75% of Ossis replied that citizens were not equal before the law. In retrospect, a GDR, which three quarters of those questioned regarded as “above all… the endeavour to construct a more just society”, looked rosier. The psychotherapist Michael Geyer concluded: “The East Germans are inwardly convinced that they are better human beings.” In fact, only 30% of East Germans (compared with 70% of West Germans) believed that democracy was the best form of government.
mondediplo.com/1997/02/09germany
That is one article, i’ll be be glad to post more.
links for you to see for yourself the situation in the east. Iam also not German, my husband is. He lived there, he experienced both socialism and capitalism. I hear it from his own lips, and those we knew in germany. Here is one link you can see:
No more complexes about West German superiority. No more blind faith in the Western economists. Forget Chancellor Kohl’s promises of prosperity. Seven years on, unification is turning into a disaster. In the East German regions, which have lost 70% of their industries, unemployment has reached 16%, twice the figure in West Germany. Fear of tomorrow has taken the place of visions of a rosy future. One sign is a 50% plunge in the birth rate.
Friedrich Schorlemmer, a former member of the Citizens’ Movement, has written a pamphlet attacking the system now imposed on the 16 million victims of East German history; he has called it “The ice age” (5). Work is now a privilege, the black marketeers rub their hands as unemployment rises, and three quarters of the population stand impassively side be side with the poor who make up the other quarter. Worse still, the East Germans as a whole have become marginalised politically as well as economically. They no longer have a say. After all, most of their political figures were eliminated in the consummate style of the cold war. And the slightest criticism is seen as nostalgia for the days of the German Democratic Republic (GDR), which is now branded a “second dictatorship”
In the same survey 75% of Ossis replied that citizens were not equal before the law. In retrospect, a GDR, which three quarters of those questioned regarded as “above all… the endeavour to construct a more just society”, looked rosier. The psychotherapist Michael Geyer concluded: “The East Germans are inwardly convinced that they are better human beings.” In fact, only 30% of East Germans (compared with 70% of West Germans) believed that democracy was the best form of government.
mondediplo.com/1997/02/09germany
That is one article, i’ll be be glad to post more.
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Marilena
Guest
And by the way friend, I do have a job. My husband also tells me that Catholics and Lutherans went to church weekly. They were not told they could not go.
M
Marilena
Guest
March 26, 2005
Germans Want Berlin Wall Back?
By rob on March 26, 2005 at 2:03 PM
No Comments Yet
This is surprising.
Things have been hard for Germans in recent years. Economic shortcomings and high unemployment rates have made life difficult for many of the people there, but I’m rather shocked that anyone in Germany, especially the East Germans, would want a return to the days of the Berlin Wall.
sayanythingblog.com/2005/03/26/germans_want_berlin_wall_back/
Germans Want Berlin Wall Back?
By rob on March 26, 2005 at 2:03 PM
No Comments Yet
This is surprising.
Code:
BERLIN (Reuters) - Nearly a quarter of western Germans and 12 percent of easterners want the Berlin Wall back -- more than 15 years after the fall of the barrier that split Germany during the Cold War, according to a new survey.
The results of the poll, published Saturday, reflected die-hard animosities over high reunification costs lowering western standards of living and economic turmoil in the east.
The survey of 2,000 Germans by Berlin's Free University and pollsters Forsa found 24 percent of those living in western Germany want the Wall back -- double the eastern level.
In Berlin itself, 11 percent of westerners and 8 percent of easterners said "yes" when asked: "Would it be better if the Wall between East and West were still standing?."sayanythingblog.com/2005/03/26/germans_want_berlin_wall_back/
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