stigmata

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I was listening to a discussion about the actual places nails were placed during historical crucifixions. According to this discussion, the nails were actually driven through the wrists which are actually considered part of the hand in the original language of the scriptures. This got me thinking about the people who have recieved the stigmata. Take Padre Pio, for instance, were his wounds in the wrists or the hands?

Thanks.
 
I believe Padre Pio’s stigmata were in the palms but I am not positive.

I have also heard the argument that those being crucified were nailed in the wrist. There are others, however, who state that a person’s palms could handle the weight of crucifiction without tearing through the hand.

I’m not sure the Church has ever needed to state where Christ’s hands were nailed. Even if it did occur in what we would call the wrist and the stigmata appears in the palms, I don’t feel that would minimize the miracle. The stigmata are a sign, and signs must be understood to be appreciated.
 
Good question! I’ve often wondered about this too. I’ve heard that in some cases ropes were used to support the weight of the body. I hope this question catches the eye of those who might know!
 
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rubbersoul:
I was listening to a discussion about the actual places nails were placed during historical crucifixions. According to this discussion, the nails were actually driven through the wrists which are actually considered part of the hand in the original language of the scriptures. This got me thinking about the people who have recieved the stigmata. Take Padre Pio, for instance, were his wounds in the wrists or the hands?

Thanks.
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We’re not sure.

Death during crucifixion was usually caused by cardiac arrest. For those being crucified…and were taking too much time to die…they would break their legs (crurifragium) so they would fall down…making it harder for them to breathe. Dehydration is also a part of the process. The belief is that the nail was driven…through the palm…but angled…where it would have gone through the wrist bone(s). This method…would indeed support several hundred pounds. This method would have also enduced a sensation known as “Causalgia.” A nail driven directly through the wrists would have caused too much blood loss. The nail through the hands…the goal was to cause pain…aka Causalgia. The weight of the body would also cause joint dislocation…it was a common occurrence. During crucifixion the weight of the body pushes down on the nails…the ankles support the weight. The decreased oxygen also damages the heart itself (it’s called myocardial infarction) which leads to cardiac arrest. In severe cases of cardiac stress, the heart is known to burst, this process called “cardiac rupture.” The goal of crucifixion was to draw out the process of death…to be as tortuous as possible. Crucifixion was invented by the Persians between 300 - 400 BC…it was probably inspired by Assyrian impalement. In ~ 519 BC, Darius I (King of Persia) crucified ~3,000 political opponents in Babylon. Crucifixion spread and was used by Greeks (Alexander the Great), Seleucids (Antiochus IV Epiphanes), Carthaginians, Jews, and Romans…until St. Constantine the Great (Christian Emperor) abolished it within the Roman Empire in 337 AD. It was abolished out of respect and veneration for Jesus.
 
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rubbersoul:
I was listening to a discussion about the actual places nails were placed during historical crucifixions. According to this discussion, the nails were actually driven through the wrists which are actually considered part of the hand in the original language of the scriptures. This got me thinking about the people who have recieved the stigmata. Take Padre Pio, for instance, were his wounds in the wrists or the hands?

Thanks.
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I believe that if someone believed all their life that the wounds of Christ were in his hand and God wanted to give that person the stigmata he would give it to that person on the hand. regardless of where they really were on Christ. Just like people who have seen apparitions see the apparition in the way that they would recongnize. The images we have of Mary vary widely and I have seen none that look like a first century Jewish woman.
 
I read an article interviewing a Priest that consulted on “The Passion” with regard to this. Mel did a lot of research to try to determine the historical accuracy. What he found was that it was done both ways. It would be done through the wrist to support the body weight for some people. For others, it was through the palm, and the hands were secured with ropes.

The Shroud appears to favor the wrist theory, but other things favor the palms. For example, when Jesus confronts Thomas, we see the word hands - but this is muddied because the translation could also probably have been rendered “wrists.”

I believe that Stigmata accounts are in the palms, so this was a factor. Finally, any artwork we have tends to show the nails in the palms. One could surmise that there is a reason for that.

In the end, Mel decided there was not overwhelming evidence either way, and since most people tend to picture the nails through the palms, and certainly our crucifixes and artwork do, then it would be a more familiar way of presenting the crucifixion.

So, I think the answer is we will probably never know for sure until we meet Jesus for ourselves. In the end, it’s not important. Either way, what an incredible sacrifice He made!
 
In regards to the wounds depicted on the Shroud…a forensic scientist examined the cloth and said…nails starting in the palm (beneath the thumb)…@ ~ 45 degree angle…then exiting out through the wrist bone…was likely.

As far as the authenticity of the Shroud…we do know this…
  1. Most scientists conclude Carbon testing will prove inconclusive on this particular garment…due to the smoke…and various elements fused into the garment…from the fire, etc. Also…interesting to note…gum arabic was found next to the place where the original samples
    were taken…it was common practice to use gum arabic to hold threads during weaving repairs. Blood type AB was found on the Shroud of Turin…the same blood type found on Veronica’s Veil. The image on Veronica’s Veil matches the face on the Shroud of Turin. The only difference is that on Veronica’s Veil…the eyes are open.
  2. The blood on the Shroud of Turin matches the blood on the Sudarium. What is the Sudarium? Jewish beliefs were that the essence of a person was contained within the blood. After a crucifixion a sudarium would have been pinned around the head …to soak up bodily fluids. The “Sudarium of Oviedo,” which has a written record going back to Jerusalem (1st century)…contains the same blood type and composition found on the Shroud of Turin.
  3. The weave of the Shroud of Turin holds a great deal of information. All textile experts agree…the weave that was used was not used during medieval times…this particular weave…known as the masada…was used during the 1st century.
  4. An early Christian manuscript showed a series of holes on Jesus’s burial cloth…the same holes found on the Shroud of Turin…this manuscript dates way before the Carbon testing date.
 
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rubbersoul:
I was listening to a discussion about the actual places nails were placed during historical crucifixions. According to this discussion, the nails were actually driven through the wrists which are actually considered part of the hand in the original language of the scriptures. This got me thinking about the people who have recieved the stigmata. Take Padre Pio, for instance, were his wounds in the wrists or the hands?
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Padre Pio’s wounds were in his palms. I read a report (sorry, I don’t have the reference to provide) that researched this very question. I heard that Padre Pio’s response was that this should not be a concern for us. His stigmata was not just for our benefit, but also for him personally and that, when God gives the gift of the stigmata to someone, He does so in accordance with their spiritual need and not necessarily for historical accuracy. I feel that this is supported in that not all who receive the stigmata receive all of the wounds of Christ.
 
Agname,
The blood type (AB+) also matches the blood type of the Lanciano Eucharistic Miracle.

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For details click here:
Real Presence

Ironically, science confirms what we always knew. A person with an AB+ blood type is called “a universal acceptor”, whereas the person with the blood type O- is called “a universal donor”.

Christ truly is the universal acceptor.

Peace in Christ…Salmon
 
the only thing i have against the palm theory is that there are many small, fragile bones in the palm of the hand that if a spike were nailed through it (especially at an angle down through the wrist as suggested by some one earlier) one or some of those bones would break and one of the prophecies of the messiah was that none of his bones were broken. the wrist on the other hand has a hole in it that would allow a spike to fit through without breaking the bone. also, some one said that there would be too much blood through the wrist but that is not true as the spike would block the hole so that there actually wouldn’t be much blood until the spike was removed. that’ my :twocents:
 
I guess I simply don’t worry too much about this question. Spikes nailed Christ to the cross. It wasn’t a picnic either way. If the verifiable details were the important thing, they would have been made clear.
 
According to the mystic Maria Valtorta, Our Lord was crucified in one palm and in one wrist. The Shroud of Turin shows a nail through the wrist of one hand but this hand covers the one below. According to one of Maria’s visions, Jesus explained that with the hand below the nail was driven through the palm.
Kind regards.
 
In the annual re-inactment of the crucifixion during Holy week of Easter in the Philippeans, the nails are driven through the palms, though their arms are supported by ropes since they don’t actually wish the participants to die.

John.
 
Speaking of the Shroud and the prophecy that none of the messiah’s bones would be broken …

I’ve read several analyses of the Shroud that all say the bridge of the nose was broken. That has always puzzled me, given the prophecy. :hmmm:
 
I read somewhere, can’t remember, one of the books on the life of St. Padre Pio, that he said that his wounds were symbolic of Christ’s Passion. So it doesn’t really matter whether the wounds were in Christ’s palm or wrists, and a stigmatists were in the palms.
 
In regards to the wounds depicted on the Shroud…a forensic scientist examined the cloth and said…nails starting in the palm (beneath the thumb)…@ ~ 45 degree angle…then exiting out through the wrist bone…was likely.
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Hmm . . . Then we would expect authentic stigmatists to have entrance wounds in the palm, and exit wounds through the wrist.

Is this the case, or can we acknowledge that famous stigmatists, saintly though they may have otherwise been, actually unwittingly produced the stigmata by themselves through psychological suggestion?
 
Again, St. Padre Pio said that he could go out to a field and look at a cow all day long but never grow horns.

On the other hand, I think that some people, as you said, might be saintly, have the stigmata, but might be due to a neurosis. For example, Teresa Neumann and Rose Ferron (USA).
 
Again, St. Padre Pio said that he could go out to a field and look at a cow all day long but never grow horns.
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The analogy is ludicrous, especially since bodily stigmata have been recorded, in particular its being due to psychological suggestion.

Albeit, in these cases, the stigmata are never as profound as they are recorded to have been in the Saints.
 
i’ve only read a few of the posts on this thread so forgive me…

but for the nails to have gone through the palm without breaking a bone (as there are so many tiny and fragile bones in the hand) would be a miracle (and i am not opposed to that miracle but…) so it seems more likely that Christ’s nails went through His wrists (where there is a slight gap that would permit a railroad spike type nail to pass through without breaking a bone) so the scripture that “no bone was broken” would be fulfilled. just a thought.
 
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