The Confusion of Catholicism

[PumpkinCookie]

There have been several threads aimed at questioning, refuting, mocking, and jeering atheism lately. It seems that this particular sub-forum has become a place of open hostility toward atheism. I suppose that’s fair, considering that the wider internet is a place of open hostility toward all religion. But, I thought I would offer a theory of why there seems to be so much rancorous mutual hatred and disdain between christians/catholics and atheists/agnostics.

Before proceeding, I would like to clarify that I am an agnostic theist. I do have a personal history of hating Catholicism, but I am trying to get over it to the best of my ability. I have stated my personal bias ahead of time; hopefully this is a sufficient disclosure.

Here is my theory about why so many people hate and fear atheism/atheists:

1: The essence of what it means to be a Catholic is ambiguous and confusing.
There doesn’t seem to be any consensus on what it means to be a true Catholic. This website should be proof enough, but evidence abounds! Confusion reigns. Because of this, those who consider themselves Catholic and attempt to build their identities upon that idea are building on an ambiguous and shifting core. They cannot find a solid, rich, and nutrient-filled soil for them to root their egos.

2: Without a strong and clear identity, a negative definition emerges.
Because Catholics don’t know who they are, and consequently are unable to love themselves, they must turn outward to define what they are not. They hate the other, in order to give the ego something firm to grasp. Catholics are against such and such, they oppose so and so. Because they can’t agree, or even understand what they love they turn to hatred and fear in order to define themselves.

I believe that this same dynamic drives atheism. Of course atheists can’t agree on what to believe or who they are. There is no widespread agreement or consensus. Rather, there is a mutual disdain and hatred of religion and “blind faith.” Simply not believing in God or gods is insufficient to ground one’s ego. We need a mission, a purpose, a clear vision of ourselves (whether it is illusory doesn’t matter). Atheism and Catholicism are both ambiguous and open-ended. Because of this, each side turns to the invigorating clarity of hatred.

What do you think? Is this a plausible theory? Why or why not?

Also, I have to give credit to J.P. Sartre. I am adapting his theory of hatred in Réflexions sur la question juive to this situation of internet-based hatred.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

While I agree there is widespread confusion today about what it means to be Catholic, I disagree that this stems from an inherent ambiguity in the religion itself. Is there any belief system which has been spelled out in greater dogmatic detail? which attaches a higher degree of certainty to its teachings? which has a more visible and monolithic presence in the world? We have an official hierarchy, official worship, and official teachings. What more do you want?

If confusion reigns among Catholics, I think it is due to bad formation. Some people just don’t know what the Church teaches. Others don’t want to accept teachings that require something of them. And there are those who, knowingly or unknowingly, sow misinformation about our religion. I also think there’s an identity crisis particular to the age, due in part to forces which exerted themselves in the 20th century, but that’s a topic in itself.

That said, the part of your theory about defining oneself in terms of what one is not, following from the want of a clearly defined belief system, does seem plausible to me.

As for atheism, isn’t it just the belief that there is no God? I don’t see how there can be any ambiguity about this. Either one holds this belief or he does not.

 

[Dorothy]

“Pumpkin Cookie”,

The only thing I could think of responding to you in your post was that the ideal is that Catholics who claim to be following the Lord should not hate anyone. I do not hate atheists, God created them and desires that they have the happiness that only He can give. In fact, that reminds me to pray more for them that they see the Truth and have the peace that only He can give.

Temptations to hate can be easily thwarted by looking at the Lord and saying a prayer instead of allowing one’s self to become angry and hostile. We need His grace to do this. It is a battle to let our fallen nature to not take over our feelings!

If others see the love of Christ in us they may ponder that it really is true …the salvation and joy that He brings to us.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[Reepicheep]

The essence of what it means to be a Catholic is neither ambiguous nor misleading.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day, He rose again from the dead.
He ascended to Heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead, and of His Kingdom there will be no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen.

I could talk about the meaning of each phrase, or about the significance of the Sacraments, or about the role of the Virgin Mary, or about Holy Mass. But the Apostle’s Creed makes my point.

I know what it means that I am a Catholic. Glory be to God.

 

[eazyduzit]

There have been several threads aimed at questioning, refuting, mocking, and jeering atheism lately. It seems that this particular sub-forum has become a place of open hostility toward atheism. I suppose that’s fair, considering that the wider internet is a place of open hostility toward all religion. But, I thought I would offer a theory of why there seems to be so much rancorous mutual hatred and disdain between christians/catholics and atheists/agnostics.

Before proceeding, I would like to clarify that I am an agnostic theist. I do have a personal history of hating Catholicism, but I am trying to get over it to the best of my ability. I have stated my personal bias ahead of time; hopefully this is a sufficient disclosure.

Here is my theory about why so many people hate and fear atheism/atheists:

1: The essence of what it means to be a Catholic is ambiguous and confusing.
There doesn’t seem to be any consensus on what it means to be a true Catholic. This website should be proof enough, but evidence abounds! Confusion reigns. Because of this, those who consider themselves Catholic and attempt to build their identities upon that idea are building on an ambiguous and shifting core. They cannot find a solid, rich, and nutrient-filled soil for them to root their egos.

2: Without a strong and clear identity, a negative definition emerges.
Because Catholics don’t know who they are, and consequently are unable to love themselves, they must turn outward to define what they are not. They hate the other, in order to give the ego something firm to grasp. Catholics are against such and such, they oppose so and so. Because they can’t agree, or even understand what they love they turn to hatred and fear in order to define themselves.

I believe that this same dynamic drives atheism. Of course atheists can’t agree on what to believe or who they are. There is no widespread agreement or consensus. Rather, there is a mutual disdain and hatred of religion and “blind faith.” Simply not believing in God or gods is insufficient to ground one’s ego. We need a mission, a purpose, a clear vision of ourselves (whether it is illusory doesn’t matter). Atheism and Catholicism are both ambiguous and open-ended. Because of this, each side turns to the invigorating clarity of hatred.

What do you think? Is this a plausible theory? Why or why not?

Also, I have to give credit to J.P. Sartre. I am adapting his theory of hatred in Réflexions sur la question juive to this situation of internet-based hatred.

I think this is over generalization. I have no confusion about what it means to be Catholic.

 

[Beryllos]

… Here is my theory about why so many people hate and fear atheism/atheists:

…

What do you think? Is this a plausible theory? Why or why not?

Interesting, and there is probably some truth in it.

It is a mystery how groups of people which are very similar sometimes hate each other, often over religious differences. Sunni vs. Shiite? People on the other side of the world ask “What’s the difference?” People in Asia or the Middle East might wonder the same about Catholic vs. Protestant troubles in Western civilization. Are humans hard-wired for tribal behavior? How different, really, are atheists and Catholics?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

How different, really, are atheists and Catholics?

Probably a good deal more than you suspect?

They are mostly alike in all being humans.

One has a path to salvation.

The other has no path, and doesn’t even acknowledge that one exists.

I don’t see how the importance of that can be minimalized.

 

[Jack_Common]

If you submit your intellect, by faith, and your will, by charity, to the Catholic Church, then you are a Catholic.

If you refuse to submit your intellect to the Church by corrupting or denying any dogma infallibly defined by the Church, then you are not a Catholic but a heretic.

If you refuse to submit your will to the Church by breaking communion with Catholics (primarily the Holy See, the pope), then you are not a Catholic but a schismatic.

If you do not at all profess faith in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity, then you are not a Catholic but an infidel or apostate.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

As for atheism, isn’t it just the belief that there is no God? I don’t see how there can be any ambiguity about this. Either one holds this belief or he does not.

And as you say, this is a belief, not a fact.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Those who have responded so far are not the “haters” I’m thinking about.

I have never seen any of those who have responded to this thread post threads like “the absurdity of atheism” or “why do some people prefer to be atheists?” or “Is atheism positive?”

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Several have responded that they know what it means to be Catholic.

I am sure each of you believe that you know what it means to be Catholic, but the real questions are: how can you be sure, and do you all agree with each other?

I have a suspicion that you wouldn’t agree with each other, and my suspicion is based on the thousands of pages of argumentation and disagreement on this website. My other evidence is the thousands of years of disagreement and violence about dogma, doctrine, and practice.

When you say you understand what it means to be Catholic, how do you know that you’re correct? Let’s take an example:

Several cardinals, bishops, priests, and theologians believe that there is a pathway to communion for divorced and remarried couples. Others say this is impossible. Who are the real Catholics? How do we know?

There is disagreement here. But, you can all agree that you’re not protestants or atheists right? In hatred, in ostracism, there is unity.

*By hatred I don’t mean childish emotional outbursts, but the calm and rational hatred of the “wrong” other. This hatred excludes, belittles, patronizes, scorns, and separates. It is what allows me to feel “superior” to another fellow human being. It erases their unique identity, and makes me feel special.

 

[Beryllos]

Probably a good deal more than you suspect?

They are mostly alike in all being humans.

One has a path to salvation.

The other has no path, and doesn’t even acknowledge that one exists.

I don’t see how the importance of that can be minimalized.

They are so very different, and yet God loves them all. The pious one may wander off the path and be lost. The lost one, seeking truth, may find the path. Likely? I don’t know. Possible? Yes, quite so.

 

[puzzledtoo]

I believe much of what the op has written has validity. I do however not believe there is clarity in hatred. Hatred muddies everything up. The hatred, superiority, anger, etc… that I feel towards others at any given time only keeps me constricted into my own tiny self-me, me, me, mine, mine, mine. I can only see what I want to see, not see with clarity. The I that I’m referring to is the ego. Let go of the ego and then see with clarity.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

I believe much of what the op has written has validity. I do however not believe there is clarity in hatred. Hatred muddies everything up. The hatred, superiority, anger, etc… that I feel towards others at any given time only keeps me constricted into my own tiny self-me, me, me, mine, mine, mine. I can only see what I want to see, not see with clarity. The I that I’m referring to is the ego. Let go of the ego and then see with clarity.

Yes, that’s what I mean. Hatred doesn’t give us clarity about the real world, but it allows us to construct a rich illusion in which to plant our ego. “Me, me, me, mine, mine, mine” is the result: a clarity of ego and self-identification (though it is illusory).

I think Catholics are deeply confused about who they are. I suppose it is because the content of “Catholicism” is inherently ambiguous and debatable. However, there are other possible solutions. Though they can’t understand what it truly means to be Catholic, they can at least define what it means to be not a Catholic. They can define themselves by negation, by separating themselves from the wider humanity. Atheists can be a focus of this hatred, because they are so clearly not Catholic. In times past, Jews, Muslims, or Protestants were a focus of hatred. Now the hatred is focused on “liberals” “secular people” and “atheists.”

I don’t really know, just kicking around a theory.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

This also applies to atheists:

Atheism is principally a negation of the idea that there is a God or gods. That’s all well and good, but it doesn’t give the ego enough to sustain itself.

So, some atheists espouse a kind of empiricism, or general skepticism, or some other mode of belief. But, this isn’t enough to satisfy an ego either. And so, we have an internet culture of hatred. Go to youtube, reddit, or any comment box having to do with nearly anything and you will see the deep hate of religion. Why is this? I think it is because human beings need something more substantial than “I don’t believe in god(s)” to ground their identities.

I mean, I allege that the meaning of “Catholic” is ambiguous. But, I think “humanity” is also ambiguous. What does it mean to be a real human being? No one knows! This is a psychological crisis for us, and I think many of us, myself included, are vulnerable to ideologies of hatred and exclusion.

We can’t afford this hatred any more. We need to get along. How can we accomplish this?

 

[puzzledtoo]

As for catholics not knowing who they are, that may well be. I believe this is true of all of us. When I hear or think of the phrases “after the fall” or “original sin” I view these as terms to mean that we have forgotten our true selves therefore what we see is illusory/muddied up/not true. As for what it means to be a real human being, in my view to be human is to act humanely and we get a big fat F in that respect. Just look at the way we treat others and have treated others since our beginning. Off topic-what is an agnostic theist? Be well.

 

[You]

This also applies to atheists:

Atheism is principally a negation of the idea that there is a God or gods. That’s all well and good, but it doesn’t give the ego enough to sustain itself.

So, some atheists espouse a kind of empiricism, or general skepticism, or some other mode of belief. But, this isn’t enough to satisfy an ego either. And so, we have an internet culture of hatred. Go to youtube, reddit, or any comment box having to do with nearly anything and you will see the deep hate of religion. Why is this? I think it is because human beings need something more substantial than “I don’t believe in god(s)” to ground their identities.

I mean, I allege that the meaning of “Catholic” is ambiguous. But, I think “humanity” is also ambiguous. What does it mean to be a real human being? No one knows! This is a psychological crisis for us, and I think many of us, myself included, are vulnerable to ideologies of hatred and exclusion.

We can’t afford this hatred any more. We need to get along. How can we accomplish this?

hatred of atheism seems to me to be more of an american thing. but not catholic, catholicism is in the minority in america. i think your target is possibly protestant, evangelical america who might be most vocal in opinion, atheism included.

for the rest of the world, which is the majority of the world, catholics don’t care if you are atheistic, noahide, protestant or other, they only care about doing their duty and hopefully getting to heaven.
hating was and is never a catholic thing. confession sees to all of that kind of thing. but large swathes of protestantism have rejected confession as a sacrament so feelings of hatred if they happen have no outlet unless it is to express the hatred or to bury it unresolved. catholics are conditioned by sacramental confession to free themselves.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

There have been several threads aimed at questioning, refuting, mocking, and jeering atheism lately. It seems that this particular sub-forum has become a place of open hostility toward atheism. I suppose that’s fair, considering that the wider internet is a place of open hostility toward all religion. But, I thought I would offer a theory of why there seems to be so much rancorous mutual hatred and disdain between christians/catholics and atheists/agnostics.

Before proceeding, I would like to clarify that I am an agnostic theist. I do have a personal history of hating Catholicism, but I am trying to get over it to the best of my ability. I have stated my personal bias ahead of time; hopefully this is a sufficient disclosure.

Here is my theory about why so many people hate and fear atheism/atheists:

1: The essence of what it means to be a Catholic is ambiguous and confusing.
There doesn’t seem to be any consensus on what it means to be a true Catholic. This website should be proof enough, but evidence abounds! Confusion reigns. Because of this, those who consider themselves Catholic and attempt to build their identities upon that idea are building on an ambiguous and shifting core. They cannot find a solid, rich, and nutrient-filled soil for them to root their egos.

2: Without a strong and clear identity, a negative definition emerges.
Because Catholics don’t know who they are, and consequently are unable to love themselves, they must turn outward to define what they are not. They hate the other, in order to give the ego something firm to grasp. Catholics are against such and such, they oppose so and so. Because they can’t agree, or even understand what they love they turn to hatred and fear in order to define themselves.

I believe that this same dynamic drives atheism. Of course atheists can’t agree on what to believe or who they are. There is no widespread agreement or consensus. Rather, there is a mutual disdain and hatred of religion and “blind faith.” Simply not believing in God or gods is insufficient to ground one’s ego. We need a mission, a purpose, a clear vision of ourselves (whether it is illusory doesn’t matter). Atheism and Catholicism are both ambiguous and open-ended. Because of this, each side turns to the invigorating clarity of hatred.

What do you think? Is this a plausible theory? Why or why not?

Also, I have to give credit to J.P. Sartre. I am adapting his theory of hatred in Réflexions sur la question juive to this situation of internet-based hatred.

Hi PumpkinCookie!

I am happy to know that you are trying to get over your hate.

So, according to this theory, if our ego were well grounded we would not hate anybody. And our ego would be well grounded if we had a defined identity. In turn, a defined identity would require to have a clear idea of what we are, what are we going to do and why we are going to do it. And you say that the content of this clear idea does not matter? Any idea would do?

What does Sartre say?

Besides that, what does “to hate somebody” mean for a philosopher like Sartre?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

As for catholics not knowing who they are, that may well be. I believe this is true of all of us. When I hear or think of the phrases “after the fall” or “original sin” I view these as terms to mean that we have forgotten our true selves therefore what we see is illusory/muddied up/not true. As for what it means to be a real human being, in my view to be human is to act humanely and we get a big fat F in that respect. Just look at the way we treat others and have treated others since our beginning. Off topic-what is an agnostic theist? Be well.

In my opinion an agnostic theist is someone who thinks it is impossible to know whether God exists, but who happens to believe in God. I think this is distinct from Fideism because agnostic theism admits that there are reasons to believe in God, but suspects there are no knock-down arguments that totally successfully compel belief in God.

I think there are many agnostic atheists and agnostic theists, though they may not be aware of their position.

I also happen to believe the Jews interacted with this God I believe in. Do I have proof? No. I do have several reasons to think this, but I am not here to proselytize so I won’t say any more about it.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Hi PumpkinCookie!

I am happy to know that you are trying to get over your hate.

So, according to this theory, if our ego were well grounded we would not hate anybody. And our ego would be well grounded if we had a defined identity. In turn, a defined identity would require to have a clear idea of what we are, what are we going to do and why we are going to do it. And you say that the content of this clear idea does not matter? Any idea would do?

Yes, any idea would do, though of course sane people make an attempt to ground themselves in reality. Regardless, it seems as though we can be grounded in an illusion so long as the illusion is coherent.

What does Sartre say?

Besides that, what does “to hate somebody” mean for a philosopher like Sartre?

I am not an expert on Sartre, and I’ve read only a few of his pieces. Based on my reading of “Anti-Semite and Jew” I think he would say that hatred is the mechanism by which a shattered or empty ego builds itself an identity based on the fantastic projection of a loathsome “other.” In the book, he argues that anti-semites “create” “The Jew” in their imaginations, to give them something to hate. Hate gives us something to grab onto, it makes us feel a kind of brotherhood with those who hate with us. In a world of rapid change, uncertainty, and ambiguity, it seems to be a beacon of light.