The festering problem of homosexual dissent in St. Paul-Minneapolis MN

[Catholic29]

I posted this as a response within another thread, post # 90 here, I have yet to recieve a reply. So I have given it its own thread.

It is about the seemingly never ending problem of St. Joan of Arc church in Minneapolis, which has yet to be brought back in line with the dictates of the Catechism. Check out their GLBT ministry page here: stjoan.com/glfr.htm

I also have heard no word from Archbishop Harry Flynn’s office regarding the group “Catholic Pastoral Committee on Sexual Minorities or CPCSM” based in the Twin Cities. And here is their site: mtn.org/cpcsm/ Which is also linked from St. Joan’s GLBT ministry page.

Since the bishop is the primary teacher and interpreter of doctrine and morals within his diocese, is he obligated to teach or agree with whether “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered” as the Catechism says? Or does his position as a successor to the apostles allow him to teach other than the Catechism, and thus morally obligate the rest of his priests and faithful in his diocese to go along with it?

It would be nice to know his Excellency’s position regarding the teachings coming out of St. Joan’s church and the CPCSM group. Especially in regard to whether homsexual acts are a gift to the Church as they claim, or whether they are acts of grave depravity as 2357 in the Catechism declares?

 

[Catholic29]

And it would be nice if some level of charity and docility can be maintained in this thread, as I believe this is a profoundly important and crucial subject. And I don’t realy want this end up being closed due to fruitless bantering.

So I would truly appreciate everyone keeping manners in check. Thank you and God bless.

 

[jbuck919]

I agree. The official teaching of the Church is that homosexuals must be dealt with in all charity; only the acts are intrinsically “disordered.” That means remembering that the Church is asking them out of moral necessity to do something it asks of no other person unless he/she volunteers: to abstain for life. I know of no teaching that God gives homosexuals greater strength to deal with the urges of the flesh than he does everybody else, and I would respectfully ask our members who are strongly in line with church teaching to search their own hearts with regard to how they could handle a requirement of total abstinence, before they cast the first stone.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Catholic29:

And it would be nice if some level of charity and docility can be maintained in this thread, as I believe this is a profoundly important and crucial subject. And I don’t realy want this end up being closed due to fruitless bantering.

So I would truly appreciate everyone keeping manners in check. Thank you and God bless.

LOL You call on everyone to have charity when you sarcastically refer to the Archbishop as his “Excellency”?

From Catholic 29: It would be nice to know his Excellency’s position regarding the teachings coming out of St. Joan’s church and the CPCSM group. Especially in regard to whether homsexual acts are a gift to the Church as they claim, or whether they are acts of grave depravity as 2357 in the Catechism declares?

But to the point of your question: The Archbishop has appointed a new Pastor to this parish. I’ve been told that he is dedicated to righting the errors of this parish. Rome wasn’t built in a day. If the prudential judgment is to address this by allowing the Holy Spirit to appeal to the hearts of the members of that parish over time regarding their views vs. executive fiat, we should pray for this new Pastor to have the strength to perservere in this very difficult issue.

But while he and this new Pastor are trying to internally convert hearts, the rest of us shouldn’t be clamoring for him to answer to us. It might not be conducive to their strategy at St. Joan to be successful. Sometime dirty linen should be cleaned in private and not in the public sphere.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

It could be easily dealt with, IMHO. HE Sean Cardinal O’Malley just laid it on the line, very gently, very truthfully.

 

[Della]

JKirkLVNV:

It could be easily dealt with, IMHO. HE Sean Cardinal O’Malley just laid it on the line, very gently, very truthfully.

And that is his way of dealing with it, which is fine. I’m sure you agree that we have to let our bishops deal with these things as they think best, and pray for them.

For Catholic29–God knows I wouldn’t want Archbishop Flynn’s responsibility, nor do I think it anyone’s place to condemn his pastoral decisions. Let’s let him be, and look to our own responsibilities before God.

 

[Catholic29]

Orionthehunter:

LOL You call on everyone to have charity when you sarcastically refer to the Archbishop as his “Excellency”?

But to the point of your question: The Archbishop has appointed a new Pastor to this parish. I’ve been told that he is dedicated to righting the errors of this parish. Rome wasn’t built in a day. If the prudential judgment is to address this by allowing the Holy Spirit to appeal to the hearts of the members of that parish over time regarding their views vs. executive fiat, we should pray for this new Pastor to have the strength to perservere in this very difficult issue.

But while he and this new Pastor are trying to internally convert hearts, the rest of us shouldn’t be clamoring for him to answer to us. It might not be conducive to their strategy at St. Joan to be successful. Sometime dirty linen should be cleaned in private and not in the public sphere.

I for one didn’t refer to the Archbishop as his “Excellency” out of rudeness, but only for the respect due for his office.

As for St. Joan’s new pastor, I pray he is strong enough in orthodoxy as well as charity in correcting the wrongs there. But then again that leaves the CPCSM group, which they and their many supporters have been putting up quite a show in front of the Cathedral as of late. What are the Archbishop’s plans for them, I assume as lay person I am allowed to know since this is a lay group that is at issue, am I wrong?

Again I apologize for any disrespect for the Archbishop I appeared to of uttered.

 

[Catholic29]

Della:

And that is his way of dealing with it, which is fine. I’m sure you agree that we have to let our bishops deal with these things as they think best, and pray for them.

For Catholic29–God knows I wouldn’t want Archbishop Flynn’s responsibility, nor do I think it anyone’s place to condemn his pastoral decisions. Let’s let him be, and look to our own responsibilities before God.

Della,

I wouldn’t want Archbishop Flynn’s responsibility either, nor do I think most would if they understood what it entailed. Because of that I wouldn’t even want to be a parish priest, much less a bishop, knowing how much responsibility I would have for souls. In light of this I pray for much faith and spiritual strength be given to Archbishop Flynn and St. Joan’s new pastor, as well as for myself.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Della:

And that is his way of dealing with it, which is fine. I’m sure you agree that we have to let our bishops deal with these things as they think best, and pray for them.

For Catholic29–God knows I wouldn’t want Archbishop Flynn’s responsibility, nor do I think it anyone’s place to condemn his pastoral decisions. Let’s let him be, and look to our own responsibilities before God.

Della: I for one would be very hesitant to sit in judgement of the Archbishop (or anyone else, I hope…I’m too aware of my own broken and sinful nature!). I probably should have said that I admired the way Cardinal O’Malley handled it. However, in fairness to the OP, Saint Joan’s congregation does seem and has seemed to flaunt their dissent from Church teaching for a long, long time. At some point, don’t the faithful get to ask,“What’s up with that?” I’m not talking about doing a sit-in in the Archbishop’s office, I’m mean it ought to be done with respect.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Catholic29:

I for one didn’t refer to the Archbishop as his “Excellency” out of rudeness, but only for the respect due for his office.

As for St. Joan’s new pastor, I pray he is strong enough in orthodoxy as well as charity in correcting the wrongs there. But then again that leaves the CPCSM group, which they and their many supporters have been putting up quite a show in front of the Cathedral as of late. What are the Archbishop’s plans for them, I assume as lay person I am allowed to know since this is a lay group that is at issue, am I wrong?

Again I apologize for any disrespect for the Archbishop I appeared to of uttered.

Dealing w/ lay groups (related to an order, the diocese, a parish, or indpendent) require different strategies and tactics.

Look, we all know that practicing or endorsing homosexual acts or lifestyle is contrary to the Teachings of the Church. However, people who struggle w/ this cross need the Church. My own Pastor always says that his first priority is not those of us who come every Sunday to Mass but to those who don’t, those who are hurting, those who have fallen away. And then he challenges us to make these people our priority too.

We need to be careful that when the Archbishop and their new Pastor try to get them to understand their need to abstain that what they don’t hear is they need to go or they are not valued children of God.

For this reason, as the issue is so sensitive for those bearing this cross, I don’t think that the Archbishop should discuss w/ the rest of the flock issues that are so specific to this particular parish. More importantly, we should allow this new pastor to quietly develop a pastoral relationship w/ his flock without interference or questions or demands from the rest of us. We need to just pray for him and this new pastor.

 

[Brendan]

Orionthehunter:

We need to be careful that when the Archbishop and their new Pastor try to get them to understand their need to abstain that what they don’t hear is they need to go or they are not valued children of God.

I’m not too sure the SJA folks will get anything about abstinece from their new pastor.

Fr. Debruycker was a regular presider at the Masses of the homosexual dissent group DignityUSA.

That org seeks to both affirm homosexuality as a moral choice and to change Church teachings on homosexuality.

stjoan.com/pastor.htm

And it was someone the SJA folks had requested to ‘interview’ for the position of pastor

He has served at Immaculate Conception in Columbia Heights, at Incarnation in Minneapolis, and at St. Olaf. He served as a regular presider for Dignity, at the Newman Center. He is presently serving as a Chaplain at Hennepin County Medical Center, and as Pastor at St. Leonard’s (just 5 blocks north of St. Joan’s). When George announced his retirement, about 7 months ago we asked him to interview at St. Joan’s

 

[palmas85]

As someone who has struggled over the years with many issues that I have to deal with that place me in positions contrary to church teaching I can understand the feelings that homosexuals have in this regard. At least partially.

Remember the Church says that sexuality is a gift from God, but it also says that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. Clear contradiction, no way around it. And it needs to be rectified. Either sexuality is a gift to everyone or it isn’t. The statement in the catechism about homosexuals being called to a life of celibacy, while probably true in the abstract sense, will never be advocated, at least in public discourse by the church. It wouldn’t be tolerated. More than that it is manifestly unfair. Or is it? So what to do?

Well, I for one, adhere to the principal of no sex outside of marriage. I know, kind of old fashioned and not a very popular position I admit, but a workable one. I’ ve managed to do it for quite a while, even though it is not an easy thing to do. Nope, not easy at all. But I do, because I believe it’s the right thing.

It is not always easy to do as the church commands and I think that is the major problem. People just don’t want to be told what to do, or accept that the lifestyle they live is not in accordance with Church teaching.

I don’t think there are any easy answers to this one.

 

[arieh0310]

palmas85:

Remember the Church says that sexuality is a gift from God, but it also says that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. Clear contradiction, no way around it. And it needs to be rectified. Either sexuality is a gift to everyone or it isn’t.

There is absolutely no contradiction in what the Church teaches. Is adultery, pre-marital sex, pedophilia, bestiality, rape, or addiction to pornography a gift from God? If not, how can you explain it away with your rationale?

Sin is always a perversion of God’s gift to man. God created sex to be within the context of marriage as faithful, fruitful, and unitive. Anything outside of that is gravely immoral. This is taught in Scripture, Tradition, and the consistent voice of Rome.

 

[Catholic29]

Orionthehunter:

Dealing w/ lay groups (related to an order, the diocese, a parish, or indpendent) require different strategies and tactics.

Look, we all know that practicing or endorsing homosexual acts or lifestyle is contrary to the Teachings of the Church. However, people who struggle w/ this cross need the Church. My own Pastor always says that his first priority is not those of us who come every Sunday to Mass but to those who don’t, those who are hurting, those who have fallen away. And then he challenges us to make these people our priority too.

We need to be careful that when the Archbishop and their new Pastor try to get them to understand their need to abstain that what they don’t hear is they need to go or they are not valued children of God.

For this reason, as the issue is so sensitive for those bearing this cross, I don’t think that the Archbishop should discuss w/ the rest of the flock issues that are so specific to this particular parish. More importantly, we should allow this new pastor to quietly develop a pastoral relationship w/ his flock without interference or questions or demands from the rest of us. We need to just pray for him and this new pastor.

Well, the issues that are so specific to St. Joan’s are not its own.

They basically trumpet the positions the Rainbow Sash people have had all along, but do it within the context of a sanctioned parish ministry. Along with their previous pastor Fr. George Wertin advocating them from the pulpit, as well as having lay folk deliver similar homilies up there him. If we all did some research, we would know that this parish is in a heap of trouble and that they don’t have much use for the GIRM, Canon Law, the Catechism or Scripture.

As you probably are well aware, the Vatican has called under St. Joan’s in the past. Though the gay-pride material was removed from their website, and pastors have changed. I have no idea what else has happened that would lead them back in the way of orthodox Catholic teaching. And that was the most of anything I have heard any legitmate Church authority do about them. Here is what happened: lifesite.net/ldn/2004/oct/04102806.html

You and I may disagree, but I think what is coming out of St. Joan of Arc is a danger to the faithful. And I think Archbishop Flynn should, though with much charity, state that the parish is in a state of material heresy and that Catholics should steer clear of there, until they, the Archdiocese and Magisterium can come to some common agreement on the specific Catholic teachings at issue.

However I am praying, and will continue to pray for the Lord’s intervention in resolving this most difficult of matters.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Catholic29:

You and I may disagree, but I think what is coming out of St. Joan of Arc is a danger to the faithful. And I think Archbishop Flynn should, though with much charity, state that the parish is in a state of material heresy and that Catholics should steer clear of there, until they, the Archdiocese and Magisterium can come to some common agreement on the specific Catholic teachings at issue.

However I am praying, and will continue to pray for the Lord’s intervention in resolving this most difficult of matters.

We don’t disagree that what is promoted at SJA is a scandal. I’m sickened at my core.

Your suggested remedy is IMHO the very last resort. And since we are talking about what could affect the final state of these hurting people’s souls, I’m going to continue to support and pray for every single option that tries to bring them back to the Teachings of the Church. When I look at all the **** the Holy Spirit endured for a lot longer and on a wider scale than SJA, I will have the patience of Job.

 

[batteddy]

only the acts are intrinsically “disordered.”

No. Only the acts are SINFUL. But the feelings themselves are intrinsically disordered. Because the feelings are ordered towards an unnatural end; namely the attraction to a sinful, disordered act.

The Catechism says:

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

 

[Brendan]

batteddy:

No. Only the acts are SINFUL. But the feelings themselves are intrinsically disordered. Because the feelings are ordered towards an unnatural end; namely the attraction to a sinful, disordered act.

If you read the Cathechism, the word used is ‘objectively’ disordered. That is actually different from being ‘intrinsically’ disordered.

The disorder in homosexuality is that of the object, namely what is the object of the sexual urges. The object of those urges is a person of the same sex. So homosexuality is disordered in object, or objectively disordered.

The urges themselves are not ‘intrinsically’ disordered, as an ‘urge’ has no nature. A disorder of nature is an intrinsic disorder. But since a ‘urge’ has no nature itself, until it is acted upon by the Will and becomes a decision.

Homosexuality itself, per the Cathechism is ‘objectively disordered’. The homosexual act or the decision there of, is ‘intrinsically disordered’

 

[C_S_P_B]

I think it is a real uphill spiritual battle. Fr. Debruycker is under intense spiritual attack. In fact, all priests are. But do you really think the “father of lies” will make it easy?

First of all, there has been a minimization of the belief in the Real Presence. Historically when this has happened in the Church, liturgical changes other paractices have been changed; such as moving the Tabernacle to front and center after the Council of Trent, and the new Tridentine Mass was also intituted. (I am it not way saying that this is the answer, but good liturgical practices are.) Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi

The solution for a lack of fidelity is a return to fidelity and that can start in the proper liturgical celebration of the Mass. But since the parish lay leaders have in a sense taken over, do you know how hard it would be to reestablish the practices that support the Real Presence? What if the Eucharistic Minsters (EMHCs?) do not consider themselves extraordinary and insist on elevating the host along with the priest? What if the liturgical director uses his own judgement in scripting the Mass? What if the webmasters just continue to do what they always have? What if the various committees continue to advocate what they always have? What if dissident speakers continue to give talks outside of the Mass?

You may say, it is the Priest who has the responsibility to lead. Yes, but the inmates are running the assylum! The only way this can change is by prayer and penance. The example is St. John Vianney. That Holy man took a very bad parish and transformed it by fasting, prayer and penance.

If we want St. Joan to change, we are going to have to do the same. We have to do those same things silently and anonymously in support for Fr. Debruycker. God will know and by these things, God will impart His Grace to heal and convert.

We can criticize all we want. We can say “Archbishop Flynn (or Rome or Fr. Debruycker or somebody) should do something” Yes. But each of us must help to bring the Grace of God to that parish (and our own parishes). God can work miracles. Our fasting, prayer and penance will greatly strengthen and give courage to those who have the primary responsibility for this parish. Our fasting, prayer and penance will also soften the hearts of the laity to return to the Truth.

So who will join me in fasting, prayer and penance? We are all that “somebody”!

 

[Libero]

Catholic29:

I for one didn’t refer to the Archbishop as his “Excellency” out of rudeness, but only for the respect due for his office.

As for St. Joan’s new pastor, I pray he is strong enough in orthodoxy as well as charity in correcting the wrongs there. But then again that leaves the CPCSM group, which they and their many supporters have been putting up quite a show in front of the Cathedral as of late. What are the Archbishop’s plans for them, I assume as lay person I am allowed to know since this is a lay group that is at issue, am I wrong?

Again I apologize for any disrespect for the Archbishop I appeared to of uttered.

Well it is “His Grace” anyway

As for Archbishop Flynn, I welcome his efforts to encourage an intelligent level of discusion on the topic, however, my primary concerns are that there is no intelligence in the ‘discussion’.

There are two extremes, those who rigidly condemn homosexuality, and those who openly condone it and bash others who don’t. Unfortunately neither group is engaging in a process of real education about the topic, and whenever it enters discussion, nothing comes of it due to stubborness. And nobody likes a sense of animosity on the topic - not even me!

Archbishop Flynn’s ideas are good in theory, but so far are proving a little bad in practice - but hey, it could get better yet!

 

[Orionthehunter]

Libero:

Well it is “His Grace” anyway

As for Archbishop Flynn, I welcome his efforts to encourage an intelligent level of discusion on the topic, however, my primary concerns are that there is no intelligence in the ‘discussion’.

There are two extremes, those who rigidly condemn homosexuality, and those who openly condone it and bash others who don’t. Unfortunately neither group is engaging in a process of real education about the topic, and whenever it enters discussion, nothing comes of it due to stubborness. And nobody likes a sense of animosity on the topic - not even me!

Archbishop Flynn’s ideas are good in theory, but so far are proving a little bad in practice - but hey, it could get better yet!

In my mind there are three issues and they revolve around Teaching authority, enforcement authority and the Eucharist.

1. Is the Magisterium entrusted with Eucharist and charged with laying out the criteria for one to worthily recieve the Eucharist or is the Eucharist entrusted to us as individual parts of the Body of Christ and thus we are able to set our individual criteria on worthiness?
2. Is the Magisterium entrusted with the Fullness of Truth and charged with defining right Teaching or are we as individuals charged with defining right Teaching?
3. Is the Magisterium entrusted with defining the Teachings permissable to be advocated/promoted by parish’s defining themselves as Catholic or can individual parish’s define which teachings they will hold within their parish?

I think that if the people of the SJA parish reach the conclusion that the answer to the question to any of these doesn’t acknowledge the Magisterium’s authority, they have to acknowledge that they are something other than Catholic.

But the Archbishop shouldn’t ask them that question today for an up down vote. People reach erroneous judgments and misform their conscience over a long period of time. As the Body of Christ and the Church, we have to acknowledge that by our sins of ommission and commission on this issue and our private lives we have been part of the problem. The Church teaches that the sins of one of our brother’s is our sin and the good of one of our brother’s is our good. Penance and prayer are the remedy to our individual and collective sins.

The Archbishop and Pastor have yeoman’s work to create an environment that will allow the Holy Spirit to do His thing. The best thing those of us not intimately and personally involved in this challenge is do as proposed by CSPB- fast, pray, and do penance.