The magical god-making process

[montanaman]

It just hit me.

Only the most obstinant of Protestants will ever deny that praying for each other here on Earth is efficacious. I’ve met a few, and they totally ignore the Bible passages to the contrary. But as we all know, close to 99% seem to think that asking a saint to pray for you is idolatry.

Why?

I guess I’d have to let them explain, but it appears, based on the evidence on hand, that Protestants equate the dead with God, or somehow, somewhere between Earth and Heaven, they became divine. Or something. We explain to them until our voices are hoarse and our fingertips have calluses that we DO NOT ATTRIBUTE DIVINITY TO SAINTS. But, it’s to no avail.

Yes, I’m being a little disingenuous, but there’s a truth to it. Protestants are superstitious when it comes to the dead. It’s almost as if they don’t really believe that those who’ve died in the friendship of Christ are really in Heaven. These are our brothers and sisters, yet they want to believe there’s a great big, black heavy curtain hanging over the vine we’re all connected to.

 

[Eden]

The greatest problem they have with the dead, which is in complete contradiction to the message of Christ, is that people who go to heaven are dead. They ask, “Why to you pray to dead people?”

This is a major flaw in their understanding. Surely, they do not believe that someone who is with Christ in heaven is anything but fully alive - more alive than we are here on earth. Yet they insist that saints are dead!

I think more than anything, the people who have a problem with asking for a saint’s intercession have just not thought too profoundly about it and have simply dismissed it as “Catholic idolatry”.

 

[montanaman]

Eden:

The greatest problem they have with the dead, which is in complete contradiction to the message of Christ, is that people who go to heaven are dead. They ask, “Why to you pray to dead people?”

This is a major flaw in their understanding. Surely, they do not believe that someone who is with Christ in heaven is anything but fully alive - more alive than we are here on earth. Yet they insist that saints are dead!

I think more than anything, the people who have a problem with asking for a saint’s intercession have just not thought too profoundly about it and have simply dismissed it as “Catholic idolatry”.

They don’t have to think “profoundly” about it. Seems like a simple concept to me. You die, you’re judged, you go to Heaven (assuming, you know, you did more than the magical “acceptance” prayer). Simple.

What blows MY mind is the idea that in Heaven you’re somehow cut off from the rest of the vine on Earth. Granted, there isn’t much in the way of hard proof that your awareness is expanded with the clarity of a glorified body/mind, but you’d think they’d be a little more open to the idea that if you are capable of beholding the Beatific Vision, then just maybe, just maybe, you would still have some connection to those you love on Earth.

Once again, it stems from the radical individualism of Protestantism. Here, they’ll forsake creed, doctrine and reason for something called “fellowship.” People leave the Catholic Church to get “fellowship,” as if it’s the highest spiritual experience a person can have. But the second they get to Heaven, they fully expect to say “So long, suckers! I got my VIP pass and y’all can wallow in the mud without me!”

 

[Eden]

montanaman:

They don’t have to think “profoundly” about it.

Yes. At least in the way we understand “profound”. I think a deep thought from OSAS crowd would be anything beyond this:

montanaman:

the magical “acceptance” prayer

What blows MY mind is the idea that in Heaven you’re somehow cut off from the rest of the vine on Earth. Granted, there isn’t much in the way of hard proof that your awareness is expanded with the clarity of a glorified body/mind, but you’d think they’d be a little more open to the idea that if you are capable of beholding the Beatific Vision, then just maybe, just maybe, you would still have some connection to those you love on Earth.

It blows my mind too. I don’t see how someone can reject the visible church by saying that the Church Christ founded is invisible and in the same breath reject the intercession of saints.

Once again, it stems from the radical individualism of Protestantism. Here, they’ll forsake creed, doctrine and reason for something called “fellowship.” People leave the Catholic Church to get “fellowship,” as if it’s the highest spiritual experience a person can have. But the second they get to Heaven, they fully expect to say “So long, suckers! I got my VIP pass and y’all can wallow in the mud without me!”

Agreed.

 

[BlestOne]

montanaman:

They don’t have to think “profoundly” about it. Seems like a simple concept to me. You die, you’re judged, you go to Heaven (assuming, you know, you did more than the magical “acceptance” prayer). Simple.

What blows MY mind is the idea that in Heaven you’re somehow cut off from the rest of the vine on Earth. Granted, there isn’t much in the way of hard proof that your awareness is expanded with the clarity of a glorified body/mind, but you’d think they’d be a little more open to the idea that if you are capable of beholding the Beatific Vision, then just maybe, just maybe, you would still have some connection to those you love on Earth.

Once again, it stems from the radical individualism of Protestantism. Here, they’ll forsake creed, doctrine and reason for something called “fellowship.” People leave the Catholic Church to get “fellowship,” as if it’s the highest spiritual experience a person can have. But the second they get to Heaven, they fully expect to say “So long, suckers! I got my VIP pass and y’all can wallow in the mud without me!”

Ohhhhhh Montanaman…I loved this! On Earth you can pray for someone but once in heaven…What is it? Me time? It’s all about Me…waaaaaaa haaaaaaaa!! Love it Love It Love it!!!

Seriously, I think some of them really do look at it that way. How does this give them hope? Hope in what exactly? That would just be an afterlife…kinda like going on a vacation…alone… no massive worship session, no praying that the rest of the family and friends makes it up there, no feeling of communion with the entire church…sad, and lonely that is what I would call it…sounds more like that other place…

 

[havemercy]

I’d say that the theme is unbroken spiritual fellowship in Christ. Moreover, they’re more alive than we. They can intercede on our behalf.

 

[Eileen_T]

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us."

The saints are not only present, they are surrounding us. It doesn’t make sense that they would not be willing to help us enjoy what they have.

We are praying through the saints to God.

James 5:16 says: *“Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, …Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective” *

The prayers of a more righteous believer are more effective than our own prayers, as is the prayer of someone whose faith is stronger. Matthew 9:29 – **“According to YOUR FAITH be it done unto you.” **

Who has a stronger faith or is more righteous than someone who sees God face to face?

 

[StCsDavid]

montanaman:

They don’t have to think “profoundly” about it. Seems like a simple concept to me. You die, you’re judged, you go to Heaven (assuming, you know, you did more than the magical “acceptance” prayer). Simple.

What blows MY mind is the idea that in Heaven you’re somehow cut off from the rest of the vine on Earth. Granted, there isn’t much in the way of hard proof that your awareness is expanded with the clarity of a glorified body/mind, but you’d think they’d be a little more open to the idea that if you are capable of beholding the Beatific Vision, then just maybe, just maybe, you would still have some connection to those you love on Earth.

Once again, it stems from the radical individualism of Protestantism. Here, they’ll forsake creed, doctrine and reason for something called “fellowship.” People leave the Catholic Church to get “fellowship,” as if it’s the highest spiritual experience a person can have. But the second they get to Heaven, they fully expect to say “So long, suckers! I got my VIP pass and y’all can wallow in the mud without me!”

I had a Presybterian friend describe it as that the people in Heaven have an awareness of the people on Earth, but not a concern. Of course, that would square with their whole concept of predestination. Why should they care if your fate was signed, sealed and delivered before you were born?