Turmoil in the Church of Finland

[steido01]

Pardon my response but what you write is wildly speculative and unrealistic in today’s Church. Pastors are not denying holy Communion when the size of the parish continues to decline!

I agree with Ben, and perhaps it is speculative, but I know four LCMS pastors very well, and none of them would commune someone like Pelosi. I know, because I’ve actually talked with them regarding this very topic. Each told me that they have withheld communion to people in their church at various times. Doesn’t seem unrealistic at all, and my anecdotal evidence would toss Ben’s percentage even higher. Just FWIW.

But what bothers me about your post is the insinuation that clergy should stop defending sound doctrine in order to conform to the whims of a worldly-focused laity.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I am not really familiar with Miss Pelosi, is she a ‘notorious and open evil liver’? Or is it the fact that she is a Democrat alone that marks her out for special attention?

Her continued public support and lega for the murder of the unborn. Party is (or should be) irrelevent.

 

[steido01]

I am not really familiar with Miss Pelosi, is she a ‘notorious and open evil liver’? Or is it the fact that she is a Democrat alone that marks her out for special attention?

Well, you decide:

liveactionnews.org/pelosi-thumbs-her-nose-at-fr-pavones-challenge-to-drop-either-abortion-or-catholicism/

hotair.com/archives/2008/08/24/pelosi-lies-about-catholicism-and-abortion/

 

[andrewstx]

Now I understand. It is her support of abortion that makes her evil. I did not know she was a big supporter of legal murder.

It seems to me that support alone would bar her from Holy Communion in her own (Catholic) church as well

 

[Per_Crucem]

Pardon my response but what you write is wildly speculative and unrealistic in today’s Church. Pastors are not denying holy Communion when the size of the parish continues to decline!

Does the size of the parish determine correct praxis?

While it may be speculative as to the numbers of LCMS pastors that would commune Nancy Pelosi (were she Lutheran, of course), that says nothing about whether they would be required to withhold communion from her. They would. There’s not a single pastor in my own synod that would commune her. I would wager the vast majority of LCMS pastors would not, either (and if they did, they would be disciplined).

Obeying Christ’s commands are not “unrealistic.” What is unrealistic is that someone who supports the destruction of God’s creation would call herself a Catholic and dare to profane the Body and Blood of Christ - Whose Body she supports the legal elimination of in His most defenseless and innocent members.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Now I understand. It is her support of abortion that makes her evil. I did not know she was a big supporter of legal murder.

It seems to me that support alone would bar her from Holy Communion in her own (Catholic) church as well

It is, or should. It’s not as if canon 915 is ambiguous (as Raymond Cardinal Burke has pointed out numerous times).

 

[Per_Crucem]

Exactly A Lutheran disagreeing with the LCMS/ Wels practices of close/closed Communion will just join the ELCA who has open Communion. Catholics can Commune there and I know some who regrettably have.

Mary.

True. In that case, though (the ELCA), you’re dealing with a “church” body that makes meaningless, if not vile, statements like, “A developing life in the womb does not have an absolute right to be born, nor does a pregnant woman have an absolute right to terminate a pregnancy.” So you’re not dealing with a full basket of Christian eggs there.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

ELCA on the record about abortion

In a discussion of genetics, there are places that conversation about abortion becomes relevant.

As scientists, politicians and others weigh in on embryonic stem cell research, opinions on abortion often enter the dialogue. Also, would-be parents may find themselves in a position to consider abortion after certain results in fetal genetic testing.

The 1991 Churchwide Assembly adopted a social statement on abortion, parts of which are excerpted below. See www.elca.org/socialstatements/abortion/ or call the Division for Church in Society at (800) 638-3522, Ext. 2710, for the full statement.

• “Human life in all phases of its development is God-given and, therefore, has intrinsic value, worth and dignity. Guided by God’s Law, which orders and preserves life, human beings are called to respect and care for the life that God gives.”

• “The strong Christian presumption is to preserve and protect life. Abortion ought to be an option only of last resort.”

• “There are circumstances of extreme fetal abnormality, which will result in severe suffering and very early death of an infant. In such cases, after competent medical consultations, the parent(s) may responsibly choose to terminate the pregnancy. Whether they choose to continue or to end such pregnancies, this church supports the parent(s) with compassion, recognizing the struggle involved in the decision.”
thelutheran.org/article/article.cfm?article_id=1212

 

[benjohnson]

I am not really familiar with Miss Pelosi, is she a ‘notorious and open evil liver’? Or is it the fact that she is a Democrat alone that marks her out for special attention?

Her persistant, vocal, and un-appologetic pro-abortion stance would be the deciding factor if it came to the attention of the pastor.

 

[benjohnson]

Pardon my response but what you write is wildly speculative and unrealistic in today’s Church. Pastors are not denying holy Communion when the size of the parish continues to decline!

I’m speaking from the LCMS viewpoint and we very much deny holy communion to not only those outside the church, but to those that are engaging vocally in sin within the church.

We’re not too upset with a shrinking church - it’s to be expected in this age. Thankfully, we’re not shrinking as much as others.

 

[benjohnson]

Personally I think that the opposition is not exactly the party of God except when it comes to life issues.

Oh how I agree! None of us have clean hands and we all need to repent.

 

[commenter]

I came across this article in the Anglican Times about more than 36,000 Finns leaving the Lutheran Church in only two weeks over the issue of homosexuality. What gives this additional significance is that people who left were offended that the Church was not doing enough to end homophobia. This was in 2010.

Meanwhile the consecration of Roland Gustafsson as Mission Bishop for Sweden and Finland in defiance of state-Church archbishops of the two countries using this defense:
Any thoughts?

This raises the larger issue of “Who defines orthodoxy for Lutherans?” Lutherans look to the Scriptures, the ancient Christian documents, and the authoritative Lutheran documents. They evaluate denominations and pastors based on consistency with that tradition. But I’m sure the Church of Sweden has scholars who “prove” that all their new doctrinal interpretations are really more faithful to* this *scripture passage, or to *that *Early Church Father. I am sure the ELCA has scholars who wrap every controversial position in a deeper reading of authoritative Lutheran documents.

How does the average layperson decide between Christian scholars and pastors who all claim to be orthodox? You might argue that a given church body seems to be reliable so you trust their scholars and pastors. But I would guess that the Church of Sweden maybe 60 years ago might have appeared “orthodox” to most Christians. So also would the denominations that formed what is now the ELCA. How do you know when a reliable denomination stops being reliable if that teacher is the one you trust to teach you what is and isn’t reliable?

You might say “I will stay with my denomination unless it becomes an unreliable teacher.” But I am sure the Church of Sweden didn’t become unreliable in one day. As it gradually redefined orthodoxy, it changed the perceptions of many people.

 

[JonNC]

This raises the larger issue of “Who defines orthodoxy for Lutherans?” Lutherans look to the Scriptures, the ancient Christian documents, and the authoritative Lutheran documents. They evaluate denominations and pastors based on consistency with that tradition. But I’m sure the Church of Sweden has scholars who “prove” that all their new doctrinal interpretations are really more faithful to* this *scripture passage, or to *that *Early Church Father. I am sure the ELCA has scholars who wrap every controversial position in a deeper reading of authoritative Lutheran documents.

How does the average layperson decide between Christian scholars and pastors who all claim to be orthodox? You might argue that a given church body seems to be reliable so you trust their scholars and pastors. But I would guess that the Church of Sweden maybe 60 years ago might have appeared “orthodox” to most Christians. So also would the denominations that formed what is now the ELCA. How do you know when a reliable denomination stops being reliable if that teacher is the one you trust to teach you what is and isn’t reliable?

You might say “I will stay with the LCMS, unless it becomes an unreliable teacher.” But am sure the Church of Sweden didn’t become unreliable in one day.** As it gradually redefined** orthodoxy, it changed the perceptions of many people.

I think you answered your own question, using the term “redefined orthodoxy”.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Frankly, I am not well-versed at all in the subject of how the modern Church reads holy Scripture and sometimes comes to different conclusions. It would be well worth the time to explore this more fully. I am aware that enlightenment via science/ human development/ understanding is something the Church considers. For example, some fundamentalist Christians believe that creation was exactly how it is described in Genesis and, to this day, believe the world is perhaps only 6000 years old.

The Vatican refers to these issues with Lutherans as “ethical and anthropological” which suggests that revelation is on-going.

The Lutheran Church, as represented by those who associate with the Lutheran World Federation, comprise over 90% of Lutherans worldwide. These are the same Lutherans who participated and, in-fact, represent official Lutheranism in the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue. Not every synod or diocese believes in same-sex marriage but the willingness to view homosexuality as an expression of God-given love is left open for prayerful consideration, as the archbishop of Finland suggested.

 

[JonNC]

=EvangelCatholic;11802708]Frankly, I am not well-versed at all in the subject of how the modern Church reads holy Scripture and sometimes comes to different conclusions. It would be well worth the time to explore this more fully. I am aware that enlightenment via science/ human development/ understanding is something the Church considers. For example, some fundamentalist Christians believe that creation was exactly how it is described in Genesis and, to this day, believe the world is perhaps only 6000 years old.

The Vatican refers to these issues with Lutherans as “ethical and anthropological” which suggests that revelation is on-going.

Citation, that Lutherans and Catholics believe that revelation is ongoing.

The Lutheran Church, as represented by those who associate with the Lutheran World Federation, comprise over 90% of Lutherans worldwide. These are the same Lutherans who participated and, in-fact, represent official Lutheranism in the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue. Not every synod or diocese believes in same-sex marriage but the willingness to view homosexuality as an expression of God-given love is left open for prayerful consideration, as the archbishop of Finland suggested.

Where in scripture is it left open to “prayerful consideration”? Where in the Confessions is it left open to "prayerful consideration? And considering dialogue with Rome, where has the pope or Magisterium left it open to “prayerful consideration”?

Are we then willing to leave open to “prayerful consideration” heterosexual relationships outside the bond of marriage as an expression of God-given love? How about affairs by married people?

I would contend that the ELCA/LWF cannot stand on its dialogue with the Catholic Church, as your post has done here, then deviate far from orthodox catholic belief regarding this issue.

Jon

 

[commenter]

I think you answered your own question, using the term “redefined orthodoxy”.

Jon

When I was in college, and we would go to the bar, I’d say “I’ll know it’s time to stop drinking, as soon as I start getting drunk”. Or in other words, “As soon as my critical thinking skills have been dulled by my gradually drifting teacher, then my rational insight will tell me I need a new teacher.”

To paraphrase CS Lewis, Screwtape found the gentle downward slope effective, not the cliff. To people on the outside, it appears like the liberal denominations went over a cliff. To those on the inside, it likely felt like they were getting more and more gentle. So most remain. They don’t say “I like the redefined orthodoxy”, they don’t know it’s been redefined.

 

[JonNC]

When I was in college, and we would go to the bar, I’d say “I’ll know it’s time to stop drinking, as soon as I start getting drunk”. Or in other words, “As soon as my critical thinking skills have been dulled by my gradually drifting teacher, then my rational insight will tell me I need a new teacher.”

To paraphrase CS Lewis, Screwtape found the gentle downward slope effective, not the cliff. To people on the outside, it appears like the liberal denominations went over a cliff. To those on the inside, it likely felt like they were getting more and more gentle. So most remain.

The frog in the gradually warming pot of water.

Jon

 

[Expatreprocedit]

What gives this additional significance is that people who left were offended that the Church was not doing enough to end homophobia. This was in 2010.

In my opinon, the term “homophobia” should always be enclosed in quotes. While there may occasionally be legiimate uses of the term (there are people with an irrational fear of homosexual people) it has been hijacked into a political term to advance the pro-homosexuality cause.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Citation, that Lutherans and Catholics believe that revelation is ongoing.

Where in scripture is it left open to “prayerful consideration”? Where in the Confessions is it left open to "prayerful consideration? And considering dialogue with Rome, where has the pope or Magisterium left it open to “prayerful consideration”?

Are we then willing to leave open to “prayerful consideration” heterosexual relationships outside the bond of marriage as an expression of God-given love? How about affairs by married people?

I would contend that the ELCA/LWF cannot stand on its dialogue with the Catholic Church, as your post has done here, then deviate far from orthodox catholic belief regarding this issue.

Jon

Jon, these very issues are, in-fact, addressed in the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue X. : The Church as Koinonia of Salvation: Its Structures and Ministries (2004)

Female ordination in Church of Sweden began in 1960; Vatican II [1962-65]. Catholics know the Lutherans represented in the Dialogue/ Joint Declaration/ From Conflict to Communion.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

In my opinon, the term “homophobia” should always be enclosed in quotes. While there may occasionally be legiimate uses of the term (there are people with an irrational fear of homosexual people) it has been hijacked into a political term to advance the pro-homosexuality cause.

Agree entirely; I hesitated using “homophobia” at all but the article refers to it.