Turmoil in the Church of Finland

[JonNC]

Jon, these very issues are, in-fact, addressed in the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue X. : The Church as Koinonia of Salvation: Its Structures and Ministries (2004)

Female ordination in Church of Sweden began in 1960; Vatican II [1962-65]. Catholics know the Lutherans represented in the Dialogue/ Joint Declaration/ From Conflict to Communion.

Ok,
I’ve read that document, and have it bookmarked because I refer to it often. Where is the question of revelation being closed or on-going addressed? A paragraph number will suffice.

As for women being ordained:

1. Ordaining women to the ministry of word and sacrament occurred in German, Scandinavian, and other European Lutheran churches prior to the decision to do so in the United States. The significant debate in Sweden and its decision to ordain women as priests in 1958 was a turning point for many.(461) A Lutheran Council study, carried out in 1968-69, centered especially on scriptural questions. The LCA and ALC voted at conventions in 1970 to ordain women.(462) The practice, found also in the AELC, was readily carried into the ELCA. Since Lutherans have one office of ministry, no theological obstacle existed to female pastors becoming bishops.(463)

I know this, but it doesn’t answer my question, either.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Ok,
I’ve read that document, and have it bookmarked because I refer to it often. Where is the question of revelation being closed or on-going addressed? A paragraph number will suffice.

As for women being ordained:

I know this, but it doesn’t answer my question, either.

Jon

The point is that dialogue continued knowing that our dogma is Catholic and direction is Lutheran. Revelation as understood by the teaching authority evidenced in Francis recent statements regarding same-sex civil unions.

 

[JonNC]

The point is that dialogue continued knowing that our dogma is Catholic and direction is Lutheran. Revelation as understood by the teaching authority evidenced in Francis recent statements regarding same-sex civil unions.

I take that to mean you mistakenly referenced “the church as koinania”?
Could you then link to Pope Francis’ comment about same gender marriage?

See, I don’t believe Pope Francis has any positive feelings about same gender marriage or female ordination.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I take that to mean you mistakenly referenced “the church as koinania”?
Could you then link to Pope Francis’ comment about same gender marriage?

See, I don’t believe Pope Francis has any positive feelings about same gender marriage or female ordination.

Jon

religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/05/pope-francis-church-could-support-civil-unions/comment-page-18/

 

[Expatreprocedit]

I am not really familiar with Miss Pelosi, is she a ‘notorious and open evil liver’? Or is it the fact that she is a Democrat alone that marks her out for special attention?

Personally I think that the opposition is not exactly the party of God except when it comes to life issues.

The Democrats, I believe have their good points as well, such as their affection for the poor. I am torn on politics since both major parties have their good and bad.

I vote for the individual, not the party. I most often vote Independent and my affiliation is Moderate Republican.

You and I are in the same boat, brother.

 

[commenter]

The point is that dialogue continued knowing that our dogma is Catholic and direction is Lutheran. Revelation as understood by the teaching authority evidenced in Francis recent statements regarding same-sex civil unions.

Since the 1960s the Vatican has “continued” some kind of dialogue with other Christians, persons in non-Christian religions, atheists, communists, Humanists, supporters of legal abortion, SSPX, capitalists, and many other groups of people. The dialogues have “continued” even while those groups moved farther from Catholicism in some cases. Be cautious of reading too much into the Church’s willingness to dialogue.

Pope Francis has a different personality than Benedict, and he gives the blog-writers 10 times as much material to obsess about. Somewhere there are media reports and blogs that “prove” Francis is about to move the Church in 100 different, sometimes opposite directions, many blogs contradicting other blogs. Somewhere there is a blog that proves Francis is about to mandate (or forbid) weekly exorcisms in every parish, vegetarianism, and A,B and C, whatever your interest is.

This is a reflection on our media culture, not of Pope Francis, who is a blessing for the Church at this time.

 

[Peter_J]

EC:

The Vatican refers to these issues with Lutherans as “ethical and anthropological” which suggests that revelation is on-going.

Not to be mean, but it sounds like you have extremely little understanding of the words “ethical” and “anthropological”.

 

[Peter_J]

In my opinon, the term “homophobia” should always be enclosed in quotes. While there may occasionally be legiimate uses of the term (there are people with an irrational fear of homosexual people) it has been hijacked into a political term to advance the pro-homosexuality cause.

Agree entirely; I hesitated using “homophobia” at all but the article refers to it.

And (this may go without saying, but I’ll say it) real homophobia isn’t at all combatted by extreme statements like the ones in question. If anything, it is probably furthered by them.

 

[Taurks]

Precisely. Wouldn’t these individuals be perfectly deserving candidates for latae sententiae excommunication?

It’s a practically a given that if an LCMS, ELS, WELS or ELDoNA member were to publicly defend non-Christian (or non-Lutheran) values --particularly if that individual holds a position of political influence and power-- they would merit a talking-to from their pastor, and likely not be permitted to communion until they repented. Heck, in the LCMS we even beat up our pastors simply for appearing to support unionism with other Christians, regardless of intent.

While observing the consecration of a bishop in the Anglican Church who did not believe in the resurrection, a Serbian Orthodox Christian was once asked what people in his country would do if a Bishop openly held such a position. He replied: “That’s simple - we would throw him into the river.”

 

[commenter]

The frog in the gradually warming pot of water.

Jon

Your example is good, though it is more like a community of frogs, all warming together. This gives the illusion of “safety in numbers”; if there are many others in the same pot, or denomination, that shows I am ok where I am, the changes I feel must be harmless. That makes it harder for the “orthodox” frog to jump out, because he’s also jumping away; which is why so few do jump out.**

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I pray for Francis and trust that the Pope will lead us on this issue.

 

[Per_Crucem]

While observing the consecration of a bishop in the Anglican Church who did not believe in the resurrection, a Serbian Orthodox Christian was once asked what people in his country would do if a Bishop openly held such a position. He replied: “That’s simple - we would throw him into the river.”

Ah, the good old days. How I miss thee.