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Montie_Claunch
Guest
It sounds like Judas was predested to go to hell, but that goes against Church teaching (I think). Could someone help me with reconciling the two? Thanks and God bless.
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Trevelyan
Guest
My understanding would be- no, Judas was definitely not predestined to hell, but that he freely chase to betray Christ. God, being all-knowing, knew this of Judas (as he knows every thing WE will or won’t do). Judas may or may not have repented before his death - God certainly would have wanted him to (repent).
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thistle
Guest
Montie Claunch:
The Church teaching is correct ALWAYS.
CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
Are you asking how to reconcile the Church teaching with your opinion?
The Church teaching is correct ALWAYS.
CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
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empacae
Guest
God knowing us so well in His choice of 12 men one of them was going to betray Jesus. It could’ve been anyone, but today and forever we will know that Judas Iscariot the traitor. What a thing to be hung on ya for eternity, eh?
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Liberian
Guest
Montie Claunch:
Judas was not “predestined” to go to Hell in the sense that he freely chose to betray Jesus. On the other hand, God knew ahead of time that Judas would do this (seeing it from His eternity, outside of our space and time). But as C.S. Lewis said, watching somebody do something is not the same thing as making him do it.
Montie,
Judas was not “predestined” to go to Hell in the sense that he freely chose to betray Jesus. On the other hand, God knew ahead of time that Judas would do this (seeing it from His eternity, outside of our space and time). But as C.S. Lewis said, watching somebody do something is not the same thing as making him do it.
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Montie_Claunch
Guest
No, I am asking to reconcile my opinion with Church teaching. I have run across a stutter in my Logic cogs and am hoping that someone could correct it.
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AHapka
Guest
I don’t think he was predestined. I do think that the Lord knew in his position everything he would do, and thus he unwittingly served the Lord even while selling him out (the Son of man goes…but woe to that man by whom he goes…). The chance to repent is always present while you are alive. Peter himself denied the Lord, but he repented afterwards. Judas could have repented after what he did.
I would love to think he repented. I know church teaching is that we cannot know with any certainty who is in hell. However, Jesus said it would have been better for him if he would never have been born. Doesn’t sound like something you would say about someone going to Heaven. Personally, I think that means he went to hell. What do the theologians out there think??
Andy
I would love to think he repented. I know church teaching is that we cannot know with any certainty who is in hell. However, Jesus said it would have been better for him if he would never have been born. Doesn’t sound like something you would say about someone going to Heaven. Personally, I think that means he went to hell. What do the theologians out there think??
Andy
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Montie_Claunch
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The “It would have been better for him if he would never have been born.” line is what got me asking the question.
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havemercy
Guest
There is no affirmative statement from the Church with regards to Judas Iscariot’s fate.
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John-the-Seeker
Guest
This question has been discussed at length in other threads.
The summary of the teachings on predestination have been clearly and correctly stated here.
Man chooses his own destination. It is not our sins that predestine us to Hell but rather our refusal to accept God’s love, correction and forgiveness by being merciful to ourselves and forgiving ourselves as we forgive others, thus clearing the way for
God to forgive us.
Thus the presumed destination of Hell for Judas Iscariot was not predetermined by his act of treachery but rather by his refusal to believe in and accept the mercy and love of God.
Thus it would have been better for this man to not have been born due to his inability to love and forgive himself. Love is the greatest commandment of God.
The summary of the teachings on predestination have been clearly and correctly stated here.
Man chooses his own destination. It is not our sins that predestine us to Hell but rather our refusal to accept God’s love, correction and forgiveness by being merciful to ourselves and forgiving ourselves as we forgive others, thus clearing the way for
God to forgive us.
Thus the presumed destination of Hell for Judas Iscariot was not predetermined by his act of treachery but rather by his refusal to believe in and accept the mercy and love of God.
Thus it would have been better for this man to not have been born due to his inability to love and forgive himself. Love is the greatest commandment of God.
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ScottH
Guest
As a former Presbyterian, I’m usually afraid to enter into any forum discussion about any “predestination”, but I’ll give this one a shot.
If memory serves, I think the prophet Isaiah was the first to tell of the one who would betray the Son Of Man.
As for that being “predestiny” for Judas, I can’t say. God has the distinct advantage of being able to thumb through the pages of the past, present, and future and know what we do.
So the question is this- because He knows what we will do, does that mean that the outcome wasn’t our free will? (or in this case, the will of Judas.)
Does it necessarily mean that Judas had no choice, or that God knew exactly what Judas’ choice would be since he knows the beginning and the end, future, past, and present?
These are questions that really can’t be tackled by our limited knowledge. We are handcuffed by the concept of time, but that doesn’t mean that God is.
I just happen to think that those who are sold out one way or another on this predestination debate tend to miss the big picture. (And, Montie, I’m not saying that you are one of those)- but I know from being a former Protestant that its a debate that often gets ugly and never can be settled, at least on this side of eternity.
I remember my old Presby church- there were hard feelings between Calvanistic Presbyterians (the Pro-Predestination folks) versus some Presbyterians of the Armenian persuasion (the free-will folks.) I found out that if I got involved, it only led to headaches. The thing is, scripturally, a case can be made for both predestination AND free-will. (Most Calvanists point to the passage where it is said that “God hated Esau before he was born”.
The Armenians would then counter with “yeah, but if pre-destination is the only thing, why bother with the great commission if only the chosen will come forth anyway?”
There’s no clear cut answer to predestination vs. free will, but there are tons of opinions and “best guesses”.
If memory serves, I think the prophet Isaiah was the first to tell of the one who would betray the Son Of Man.
As for that being “predestiny” for Judas, I can’t say. God has the distinct advantage of being able to thumb through the pages of the past, present, and future and know what we do.
So the question is this- because He knows what we will do, does that mean that the outcome wasn’t our free will? (or in this case, the will of Judas.)
Does it necessarily mean that Judas had no choice, or that God knew exactly what Judas’ choice would be since he knows the beginning and the end, future, past, and present?
These are questions that really can’t be tackled by our limited knowledge. We are handcuffed by the concept of time, but that doesn’t mean that God is.
I just happen to think that those who are sold out one way or another on this predestination debate tend to miss the big picture. (And, Montie, I’m not saying that you are one of those)- but I know from being a former Protestant that its a debate that often gets ugly and never can be settled, at least on this side of eternity.
I remember my old Presby church- there were hard feelings between Calvanistic Presbyterians (the Pro-Predestination folks) versus some Presbyterians of the Armenian persuasion (the free-will folks.) I found out that if I got involved, it only led to headaches. The thing is, scripturally, a case can be made for both predestination AND free-will. (Most Calvanists point to the passage where it is said that “God hated Esau before he was born”.
The Armenians would then counter with “yeah, but if pre-destination is the only thing, why bother with the great commission if only the chosen will come forth anyway?”
There’s no clear cut answer to predestination vs. free will, but there are tons of opinions and “best guesses”.
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VociMike
Guest
Montie Claunch:
What does it mean to be “predestined”? I think if you answer that you will be able to answer your question.
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seagal
Guest
You are assuming that Judas is, in fact, in hell. There is no way we can know that for sure in this life.
God is so good. He always gives us the chance to repent, right up until the moment of our death (remember the good thief). And as someone mentioned before, knowing what someone will do is not the same as making him/her do it. Even Mary was invited by God to be his mother. God didn’t just use her for that mission, even though he had prepared her for just that from her conception.
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BryPGuy89
Guest
Montie Claunch:
You must have missed the whole predestination thread that was on here not to long ago. We hit basis on predestination in general and that it is part of Church teaching that God knows what one is going to do and what choices he will make with his free will. We have free will yes, but God, all powerful/ever knowing, knows our decisions.
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BryPGuy89
Guest
Suicide my friend. Suicide, re-think your comment.
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richbansha
Guest
The suicide of Judas does not necessarily preclude him from repenting when he was literally at the end of his rope. He would have had a few minutes to regret both his suicide and his betrayal.
There is also the possibility that the word betrayal may not quite fit Judas’ case. There is every possibility that Judas was trying to do right by Jesus. He may have had assurances from the San Hedron that Jesus would be perfectly safe. When things went terribly wrong, he would have been even more distraught than if he coldly sent him to his death. We might even consider the possibility that Judas was insane when he hung himself and was not entirely responsible for what he did to himself. If I found out that I had helped to murder my Lord, however unwittingly, I would be beside myself.
If I were a betting man, I would bet on seeing Judas in Heaven. He knew that Jesus was God just as well as the rest of the apostles. It is doubtful that he could have forgotten what salvation requires.
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cynic
Guest
…why is suicide considered such a terrible sin anyway, especially with regards to Judas? Would it have been better for him to live a life a comfort from the money he received? The sin of despair… well at least in despair he acknowledges the sin and believes himself not worthy of life. To me his suicide seems like the only REDEEMING aspect of Judas’s life.
In some cultures it was regarded as sign of honor to take ones own life after some personal disgrace etc
In some cultures it was regarded as sign of honor to take ones own life after some personal disgrace etc
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Montie_Claunch
Guest
Well, life is sacred (thou shalt not kill kind of thing) and what would have prevented him from turning things around like Saul (aka Paul the Apolste) who was in a similar cenerio.
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BryPGuy89
Guest
Do you know the Church’s teaching on suicide? You don’t seem to know much about Church techings at all. You’re a protestant aren’t you? Well if so then we wont be able to agree on what happened to him. Catholic Church doesn’t teach that we are “saved” by accepting Christ into our lives and accepting Him as our Lord. We work toward our salvation in fear and trembling with the guidance of the Lord. Can loose the gift of salvation if we fall from place of grace and into rampant sin.
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BryPGuy89
Guest
In Christianity it is an unforgivable sin. Thus he is dead and can’t repent, thus no forgiveness can’t be attained on earth.
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