What current Catholic music will be esteemed 500 years from now?

[VociMike]

Who would like to name some contemporary pieces of Catholic sacred music, commonly used at Mass in our own era, that they think will be esteemed as great Catholic music 500 years from now?

I ask this question in response to the claim often made that “well, every era has bad music as well as great, and it’s only the great that gets remembered.” So, what great music of our own time will they remember us for in 500 years?

 

[palmas85]

Who would like to name some contemporary pieces of Catholic sacred music, commonly used at Mass in our own era, that they think will be esteemed as great Catholic music 500 years from now?

I ask this question in response to the claim often made that “well, every era has bad music as well as great, and it’s only the great that gets remembered.” So, what great music of our own time will they remember us for in 500 years?

I doubt that any of it will survive to tell the truth.

 

[East_and_West]

Who would like to name some contemporary pieces of Catholic sacred music, commonly used at Mass in our own era, that they think will be esteemed as great Catholic music 500 years from now?

I ask this question in response to the claim often made that “well, every era has bad music as well as great, and it’s only the great that gets remembered.” So, what great music of our own time will they remember us for in 500 years?

uhhhh NONE. Modern Catholic music is just bad.

 

[VociMike]

I doubt that any of it will survive to tell the truth.

To tell the truth, I doubt it also. But this is a chance for supporters of contemporary Catholic music to defend it in the court of history.

 

[puzzleannie]

well this will be a short list.
I would guess some Taiz chants which are updates of older prayers in new settings, in modern languages as well as latin.

 

[Biblioassistant]

I can’t think of any except maybe Alleluiah (Ch-Ch) …Just kidding!!! Don’t hurt me.

 

[Lepanto]

Iron Maiden

 

[agapewolf]

“Love Has Come” by Matt Maher. It is a magnificent masterpiece.

(with the bridge)

 

[Steeltemplar]

I cannot imagine any of it will be.

Where is this era’s Mozart? This era’s Bach? Or Vivaldi? Or Beethoven? Or Handel?

I have not seen them.

 

[palmas85]

“Love Has Come” by Matt Maher. It is a magnificent masterpiece.

(with the bridge)

Agape I knew that coming from the Teen Life background that you would pick a good one and you didn’t let me down.

I doubt that this song will be remembered in 20 years let alone in 500. Of course it is loud, and hard to understand and the cymbals banging throughout could bring up an endorphin rush I suppose, but thats really about it.

Father Yahweh, Elohim;
voice of thunder, spirit wind
Breathe on me your very life;
Grace will make the darkness bright

And what exactly is the voice of thunder spirit wind?

 

[Steeltemplar]

You know, talking about music that gives you a “rush”, I actually came to enjoy classical in part through listening to heavy metal. That’s right, hard rocking power metal helped me to find my love of Mozart and Bach In particular, it was listening to the band Blind Guardian, who incorporates a lot of classical influence. I loved their work and also liked Orff’s “O Fortuna” from Carmina Burana (a work which, if one looks at the lyrics, is actually very bawdy - making it an ironic choice as a soundtrack for things like the film Excalibur). That made me want to look at a more pure form of such things, to see where they came from. When I first listened to Mozart’s Requiem in D, I realized that as much as I liked the newer stuff, it was just scratching the surface of what the masters had done.

I still love Blind Guardian mind you

But I think that nothing gives me the depth of emotional response that classical choral pieces, plainchant, and polyphony do. Though it is not something for me to sing along with, I feel as if this music expresses what is in my heart far better than I would by singing along to a mediocre modern composition.

Perhaps that ability to reach into the human soul and express with such mastery the reverence of worship is why these works endure even now.

 

[Sarabande]

I cannot imagine any of it will be.

Where is this era’s Mozart? This era’s Bach? Or Vivaldi? Or Beethoven? Or Handel?

I have not seen them.

They are around, but unfortunately their works are not the ones commonly being done for mass. I do believe that there is sacred music being composed today that equal the genius of these masters, but I only get to hear them in very, very few parishes. Also, many do not get their works promoted by the influential publishers.

Another problem lies with the state of western art music composition in general. This is something commonly discussed within my group of musician friends. For a time musical composition consisted on what some would consider “clouds of sound” - no beautiful melody line that would be simple to relate. Just these amorphous chords. It became overrun by the extreme intellectuals who were experimenting with various new ways of composing, which is interesting in it of itself, but by no means enjoyable or inspiring to the average person or even the average musician. I sometimes doubt the Bach would even enjoy it. Technically, it’s very creative, interesting, and extremely intellectual, but aesthetically it isn’t nice and did nothing for the soul. I think this hurt composition for beauty’s sake for a number of years in the 20th century. Those composers who actually did want to create something beautiful and genius were not en vogue and belittled, yet they still composed.

Then came the meshing of popular style genre music into sacred style genre around the same time of this void in compositional writing. Had it been a 100 years before or 50 years before then might have just fallen back on previous composers’ works, but because the doors were open to the trendy styles of the day, those styles filled the void instead. (This is just my theory on it)

For centuries the popular styles of the day and the sacred writing styles were rarely mixed because it was always understood that there was sacred music and then there was popular music. Also, the quality of many compositional works was excellent that there was no need to substitute. There was naturally garbage sacred works written throughout those centuries as well, but it did get thrown out, as I believe will happen eventually to what is being produced today. That is also not to say no “popular” melodies made it into the sacred repertoire, because it most certainly did, although you had very talented composers transforming it into something appropriate for mass and something not recognizeable as a local pub drinking song, let’s say. There are talented musicians out there today who can do the same thing, but I truly believe that it is much harder for them to get their works published or at least performed.

Because of the meshing of these styles of music today, we now have to weed out more different genres of music and work harder as to determine what is truly appropriate and what is not.

I hope I’m making sense here.

 

[Sarabande]

Perhaps that ability to reach into the human soul and express with such mastery the reverence of worship is why these works endure even now.

Totally agree with you there!!! Although I’m a classical musician, and is naturally my preferred “style” as it truly hits me in the gut and soul, I also love many genres of music.

 

[agapewolf]

Agape I knew that coming from the Teen Life background that you would pick a good one and you didn’t let me down.

I doubt that this song will be remembered in 20 years let alone in 500. Of course it is loud, and hard to understand and the cymbals banging throughout could bring up an endorphin rush I suppose, but thats really about it.

Father Yahweh, Elohim;
voice of thunder, spirit wind
Breathe on me your very life;
Grace will make the darkness bright

And what exactly is the voice of thunder spirit wind?

Actually, its much more complex than you give it credit for:

-you’ve never heard of the Holy SPirit referenced as wind? its in scripture. He’s referencing the majesty and awe of GOd…thats pretty obvious. It’s religious poetry and art

• the fact that the piece has three key main modulations, while during the bridge exploring some secondary dominants and hints on the sevenths shows some genious in the writing…Also has quite an obvious counterpoint in there

-the bridge is actually brought to a low, and must escalate to a climax of the piece of sort, right before the racapitulation.

It’s basic sonata form. Has all the complexities of a classical piece. And by the way, the classical composers had cymbals.
Banging cymbals in fact…read psalm 150…The classical composers also employed the “FF” volume as well.

 

[palmas85]

Actually, its much more complex than you give it credit for:

-you’ve never heard of the Holy SPirit referenced as wind? its in scripture. He’s referencing the majesty and awe of GOd…thats pretty obvious. It’s religious poetry and art

• the fact that the piece has three key main modulations, while during the bridge exploring some secondary dominants and hints on the sevenths shows some genious in the writing…Also has quite an obvious counterpoint in there

-the bridge is actually brought to a low, and must escalate to a climax of the piece of sort, right before the racapitulation.

It’s basic sonata form. Has all the complexities of a classical piece. And by the way, the classical composers had cymbals.
Banging cymbals in fact…read psalm 150…The classical composers also employed the “FF” volume as well.

Bravo Agape. You know about music and can talk intelligently about it.

The song still doesn’t make it. Not quite as bad as On Eagles Wings but pretty close.

It is a long way from genious my friend and if you choose to think of it as religious poetry well to each his own. It will probably survive in a few memories for a few years, the fade away to obscurity much the same as a truly putrid piece that came out in the late 60’s or so that galvanized many into the Friends of Jesus groups, the truly awful Put Your Hand in the Hand

It is just about as bad.

Sorry.

 

[agapewolf]

Bravo Agape. You know about music and can talk intelligently about it.

The song still doesn’t make it. Not quite as bad as On Eagles Wings but pretty close.

It is a long way from genious my friend and if you choose to think of it as religious poetry well to each his own. It will probably survive in a few memories for a few years, the fade away to obscurity much the same as a truly putrid piece that came out in the late 60’s or so that galvanized many into the Friends of Jesus groups, the truly awful Put Your Hand in the Hand

It is just about as bad.

Sorry.

Yes I can talk intelligently about it, and I don’t patronize as I do it either.

I gave an objective explanation of why this piece is parallel to a classical sonata. THe orchestrations and the counterpoint also compare well. This song has no comparison to anything written in the 60’s that is sung at Mass. It’s actually composed IN the classical genre.

you just said “its bad”.

your taste doesn’t cut it when talking about whether a song is objectively good or bad.

and although I don’t think “On eagle’s wings” is good, great, or otherwise, I sometimes wonder if it might last. Not on the merits of being a good song, but because of the sentimentality. I still play it at every funeral (because it is requested). Just like christmas carols, whether good or bad, last, so might this one. I wouldn’t bet on it, but I think it might be a possiblity

 

[palmas85]

Yes I can talk intelligently about it, and I don’t patronize as I do it either.

I gave an objective explanation of why this piece is parallel to a classical sonata. THe orchestrations and the counterpoint also compare well. This song has no comparison to anything written in the 60’s that is sung at Mass. It’s actually composed IN the classical genre.

you just said “its bad”.

your taste doesn’t cut it when talking about whether a song is objectively good or bad.

and although I don’t think “On eagle’s wings” is good, great, or otherwise, I sometimes wonder if it might last. Not on the merits of being a good song, but because of the sentimentality. I still play it at every funeral (because it is requested). Just like christmas carols, whether good or bad, last, so might this one. I wouldn’t bet on it, but I think it might be a possiblity

Sad to say my friend, personal taste is about the only thing that really determines whether or not a song lasts or is considered objectively good or bad. It has really has little to do with its structural components or whether or not it resembles a classical sonata, a waltz, a polka,rockabilly hip hop or anything else. It really doesn’t.

A technically sound or even superior piece of music may fall on deaf ears due to the wording used in it in a song. Likewise a truly beautiful lyrical song can be destroyed by the music it is set to. As to the song in question, it actually resembles in many ways certain music I’ve heard at Evangelical gatherings and other such places. Whether or not that music was composed in the 60’s I don’t have a clue. But as you have may have guessed, I’m not a big fan of much of that music either.

As I said to each his own. I just think this particular piece doesn’t deserve to last and I don’t think it will last, thats all. Don’t get offended. You take these things way too personally.

 

[agapewolf]

Sad to say my friend, personal taste is about the only thing that really determines whether or not a song lasts or is considered objectively good or bad. It has really has little to do with its structural components or whether or not it resembles a classical sonata, polka, hip hop or anything else. It really doesn’t. A technically sound piece of music may fall on deaf ears due to the wording used in it in a song. Likewise a truly beautiful lyrical song can be destroyed by the music it is set to.

As I said to each his own. I just think this particular piece doesn’t deserve to last and I don’t think it will last, thats all. Don’t get offended. You take these things way too personally.

No, I don’t take arguments or debates personally. I take sarcasm and patronizing personally. Please don’t refer to me as “your friend” since you have neglected to speak to me as one.

Personal taste may have an effect on whether a song “lasts”.

But objectively good or bad music is as such. objective…irrelevant to taste. Thats what makes it objective.The Holy Father said it himself that one song isn’t as good as another. It doesn’t rely on taste. (Same as objective truth…not relative to what people want to believe). By you saying that objectively good music is only considered on taste leaves the doors wide open…whoever considers it “good” and is making the decisions has free reign. Good can be whatever you decide it to be. This isn’t the case. There is objectivity in evaluating music.

It is ca commonly accepted to measure it against a standard…and who puts the standard in place, etc. It is commonly agreed among “legit” musicians, jazz musicians, and actually most folks here that our great composers from the classical and baroque, (and some surrounding) eras have set a standard for objectivity in music. Therefore, my parallel of that song to a sonata.

I can give dissertations on why both Elton John and Billy Joel have amazing song-writing skills, (and NO, not for mass) influenced from the classical eras, showing wit in their lyrics, etc. However, my taste is that I like most of Billy Joel, and don’t like most of Elton John. There is both objectivity and preference/taste. I recognize the good in the music although I don’t care to listen to it. I can admit that some “bad” songs might catch me ear because of one technique, instrumental choice, or lyric choice turned me on to it.

 

[agapewolf]

And one more thing, to be clear:

A particular recording of a song is not the song itself. Certain arrangements, or “cymbal crash choices” are sometimes the “on the moment” decision of a particular musician in the recording studio, and aren’t part of the composition itself.

I have 3 recorded versions of “Love has Come” One has the obnoxious cymbals at every beat change. 2 others don’t.

That is not part of the song, and is not considered in determining the value of a song. That’s merely a recording. Has nothing really to do with the song itself.

I’ve heard a raggae version of chant. No kidding. That doesn’t lessen the value of the chant itself.

 

[palmas85]

No, I don’t take arguments or debates personally. I take sarcasm and patronizing personally. Please don’t refer to me as “your friend” since you have neglected to speak to me as one.

Personal taste may have an effect on whether a song “lasts”.

But objectively good or bad music is as such. objective…irrelevant to taste. Thats what makes it objective.The Holy Father said it himself that one song isn’t as good as another. It doesn’t rely on taste. (Same as objective truth…not relative to what people want to believe). By you saying that objectively good music is only considered on taste leaves the doors wide open…whoever considers it “good” and is making the decisions has free reign. Good can be whatever you decide it to be. This isn’t the case. There is objectivity in evaluating music.

It is ca commonly accepted to measure it against a standard…and who puts the standard in place, etc. It is commonly agreed among “legit” musicians, jazz musicians, and actually most folks here that our great composers from the classical and baroque, (and some surrounding) eras have set a standard for objectivity in music. Therefore, my parallel of that song to a sonata.

I can give dissertations on why both Elton John and Billy Joel have amazing song-writing skills, (and NO, not for mass) influenced from the classical eras, showing wit in their lyrics, etc. However, my taste is that I like most of Billy Joel, and don’t like most of Elton John. There is both objectivity and preference/taste. I recognize the good in the music although I don’t care to listen to it. I can admit that some “bad” songs might catch me ear because of one technique, instrumental choice, or lyric choice turned me on to it.

As I said, you take these things way too personal. Just because I think that Lifeteen is in general an abomination that neds to go away, a view shared by many apparently, and this song you love to be rather putrid, doesn’t mean that I look at you as an enemy. No, you are just someone who has strong ideas about what they like. Those differ from mine. Thats all. Nothing personal.

Sarcasm is sarcasm nothing more and nothing less. As far as patronizing, I was paying you a compliment, You obviously know more about music than I. The fact that you refuse to see it as such shows just how deep your prejudices run.

That doesn’t surprise me either really.