What is the purpose of the divide between this life and the afterlife?

[catholic1seeks]

What I mean…

If we assume that the Christian teaching corresponds to reality, then that means the fullness of our lives is meant to be lived out in eternity. Our life on Earth, which seems so real, so important, is only a small flash compared to… well, the forever that comes after.

And yet this world seems so much like the “real thing.” Christians become victim of this view, consciously or not, when they think about Heaven in terms like light and airy – like an after thought. A place of rest, something that is spiritual and is “finish line” to the life on Earth.

But if Heaven is really meant to be the fullness of human experience – what we are made for – then what is the purpose of this short time on Earth, where we form relationships, marriages, memories for at most 100 years – only to enter into eternity.

Is life on Earth prior to death meant to be our time of testing? If so, what are the reasons to think it should endure for the time it does? Why is this time of testing and choosing bound up with things like love, suffering, and forming memories and personalities? Why not have a choice akin to the angels, who chose God or against God immediately? Of course, humans are not spirit only, but the gist of my question revolves around this “realness” of Earth that does not last.

 

[ffg]

What I mean…

If we assume that the Christian teaching corresponds to reality, then that means the fullness of our lives is meant to be lived out in eternity. Our life on Earth, which seems so real, so important, is only a small flash compared to… well, the forever that comes after.

And yet this world seems so much like the “real thing.” Christians become victim of this view, consciously or not, when they think about Heaven in terms like light and airy – like an after thought. A place of rest, something that is spiritual and is “finish line” to the life on Earth.

But if Heaven is really meant to be the fullness of human experience – what we are made for – then what is the purpose of this short time on Earth, where we form relationships, marriages, memories for at most 100 years – only to enter into eternity.

Is life on Earth prior to death meant to be our time of testing? If so, what are the reasons to think it should endure for the time it does? Why is this time of testing and choosing bound up with things like love, suffering, and forming memories and personalities? Why not have a choice akin to the angels, who chose God or against God immediately? Of course, humans are not spirit only, but the gist of my question revolves around this “realness” of Earth that does not last.

Interesting.

Walking down the path of “If we assume that the Christian teaching corresponds to reality”

If Original Sin broke a relationship with God -

The natural course of a broken relationship (or broken anything) inside of time is a continuation of broken-ness. (Outside of time, I suppose it’s an always present broken.)

Broken things don’t fix themselves.

So - effort is needed to mend, and effort takes time.

So the divide, ‘time’, allows us to rebuild what our ancestors broke (that relationship with God).

So - without the divide, time, we’re stuck without the gift of life, I suppose.

Who would want that?

Take care,

mike

 

[GEddie]

The duration of human life is so variable, and its ending so unpredictable, that we can only conclude that God determines the earthlt life for each person .

I’d also say that the formation of memories is as critical to human life as is the issue of being “tested.”

ICXC NIKA

 

[Polycarp1]

What I mean…

If we assume that the Christian teaching corresponds to reality, then that means the fullness of our lives is meant to be lived out in eternity. Our life on Earth, which seems so real, so important, is only a small flash compared to… well, the forever that comes after.

And yet this world seems so much like the “real thing.” Christians become victim of this view, consciously or not, when they think about Heaven in terms like light and airy – like an after thought. A place of rest, something that is spiritual and is “finish line” to the life on Earth.

But if Heaven is really meant to be the fullness of human experience – what we are made for – then what is the purpose of this short time on Earth, where we form relationships, marriages, memories for at most 100 years – only to enter into eternity.

Is life on Earth prior to death meant to be our time of testing? If so, what are the reasons to think it should endure for the time it does? Why is this time of testing and choosing bound up with things like love, suffering, and forming memories and personalities? Why not have a choice akin to the angels, who chose God or against God immediately? Of course, humans are not spirit only, but the gist of my question revolves around this “realness” of Earth that does not last.

Catholic theologian Frank Sheed in “A Map of Life” talks about these things in layman terms. He describes our time on earth as a time where we obtain (or not) the “equipment” needed to exist in heaven.(What heaven is is another discussion) We as creatures are unique in that our nature is both physical and spiritual, Nature is important as different creatures have different natures and abilities. God has one Divine Nature shared by Father Son and Holy Spirit. Angels, pure spirits, have a spiritual nature as they don’t have bodies. Animals have solely physical natures and don’t have spirits. Humans and animals and maybe even plants have souls which is the life principal but only humans have souls which are also spiritual souls.

The equipment we need to exist after our physical natures die at death are the Graces of Faith, Hope and Charity which we can only acquire while we are here on earth through the Church, sacraments and doing the will of God. If we have enough of the right equipment we will be able to exist in heaven and capable of the beautific vision. If we don’t we will continue to exist but it won’t be in heaven, but some other less desirable place and/or state.

 

[ffg]

I’m currently reading a very well put together book about many incorruptible Saints, one of the photos just got me thinking about how a church functions as that place where the divide seems to blur, or even be wiped away with the Eucharist presence and other things like relics that should be dust.

To take and misquote a movie line - I do not think it divides, like it seems to divide.

 

[mikekle]

Its kind of mind blowing to think just 2 people and one single decision would effect the world and many trillions of lives/ souls for all of eternity…something does not sound right about that.

Ive always sort of thought the power of Jesus dying on the cross for us would have been enough to reverse the original sin, like it did with every other sin, but it didnt.
.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Interesting.

Walking down the path of “If we assume that the Christian teaching corresponds to reality”

If Original Sin broke a relationship with God -

The natural course of a broken relationship (or broken anything) inside of time is a continuation of broken-ness. (Outside of time, I suppose it’s an always present broken.)

Broken things don’t fix themselves.

So - effort is needed to mend, and effort takes time.

So the divide, ‘time’, allows us to rebuild what our ancestors broke (that relationship with God).

So - without the divide, time, we’re stuck without the gift of life, I suppose.

Who would want that?

Take care,

mike

Brilliant line of approach to the issue… Just brilliant.

Do you know of other sources/thinkers who take a similar read?

NP

 

[ericc]

What I mean…

If we assume that the Christian teaching corresponds to reality, then that means the fullness of our lives is meant to be lived out in eternity. Our life on Earth, which seems so real, so important, is only a small flash compared to… well, the forever that comes after.

…
Is life on Earth prior to death meant to be our time of testing? If so, what are the reasons to think it should endure for the time it does? Why is this time of testing and choosing bound up with things like love, suffering, and forming memories and personalities? Why not have a choice akin to the angels, who chose God or against God immediately? Of course, humans are not spirit only, but the gist of my question revolves around this “realness” of Earth that does not last.

The small flash of time is sufficient for us to choose sides. Actually we don’t know how long did the angels take to choose sides. We assume “immediate” but I think it would have lasted a fair while. It wasn’t a small rebellion, 1/3 angels should be heck of a lot, enough to blot out the sun as one exorcist article have so claimed.

Enough time to u-turn if the initial decision was wrong. All those relationships and memories are there to help us make that decision. To know what love is, what hate is, what joy and sadness is, what suffering is, what compassion is and so on. Some just needed enough time to fall in love, have kids, encounter relationships. If one has never been a father, how can one imagine what a Father’s love is like. If one has never seen misery, horror,how can one know what it is like?Just to give us a glimpse of what heaven and hell could be like.

 

[ffg]

Brilliant line of approach to the issue… Just brilliant.

Do you know of other sources/thinkers who take a similar read?

NP

Thank you Neoplantonist, (This is where were focus the glory to God)

I wish I could offer resources (Not to say I’m original, just that I’m bad with names and attaching them to concepts).

In light of the subject and the assumption that Jesus is God (and all that goes along with it), that’s what came to mind (perhaps with a little divine intervention).

I don’t know how much influence it has, but I do like to listen to Fr. John Riccardo and the way he approaches subject matter.

The post above yours was interesting, and I want to dive into it a bit. So I hope folks don’t mind a double post, if nobody jumps in before this afternoon probably.

Take care,

Mike

 

[ffg]

Its kind of mind blowing to think just 2 people and one single decision would effect the world and many trillions of lives/ souls for all of eternity…something does not sound right about that.

Ive always sort of thought the power of Jesus dying on the cross for us would have been enough to reverse the original sin, like it did with every other sin, but it didnt.
.

Hi mikekle,

I hope you don’t mind me taking your concept here, essentially seeing the question ‘why did 1 decision affect all people?’ and running it through some analysis (Mary and Jesus exceptions set aside).

First let’s look at more current tangible evidence / examples for us to consider of 1 decision in 1 generation affecting later generations (regardless if seen as favorable or unfavorable). I think it adds a little difficulty in focusing on ‘the first people’. 2 examples:

1)Most people today are probably within a car ride of a hospital where, in that hospital there are newborn children being treated for alcohol related problems due to use during pregnancy. Those children are affected by the decision of a mother and father to not care for them properly while most vulnerable.

2)I made a decision to take a job in a new city while attending a master’s program many years ago. This ended my formal education. This decision’s effects on my children are quite visible. We’ll be able to slightly help out with college, but all will be graduating with significant student loans (most likely, if they choose the college path), same as my wife and I had, which would have an effect on their children (if so) as they can’t save, rather pay off loans.

Now we can compare what would have been ‘paradise’ to ‘non-paradise’ (relationship to non-relationship with God).

(with the assumption of Jesus is God – a Christian reality).

Let’s look at that tree.

If God loves in creating, then creation is free to love back (or not). Loving someone, by definition, can’t force someone to love back.

Had paradise not had the tree, then Humans would be robots. There would have been nothing contrary to a ‘relationship with God’ of which the Humans could make a choice to love God back (or not).

So God didn’t just whisper in their ear “Hey, you can love me or not, ok” (for the nature of humans, this would have been illogical without the tree, or something ‘in their nature’)

God worked the potential decision (to be in relationship with God) into the nature of which the Humans were placed. Consider here the parallel in the teachings of Jesus, specifically how we are to know and love Him (God) – Through love of neighbor (in our nature, doing natural things – feeding, sheltering, clothing).

In this light, the divide doesn’t seem too large because of how God communicates within our nature (even after our first parents fell to sin).

So since our nature is the way that it is, and we are made from generation to generation, hopefully it’s a little easier to see how or why what is mind blowing, can be reality.

Take care,

Mike

 

[Frankenfurter]

The purpose is so that you can choose God of your own free will. God does not want robots.

When you die and find yourself in a new place and see choices of go this way, or that way, how will you know which way to go?

A life well lived will leave you with no question as to the path.

Many report that when you go to see God, it will be the most humiliating and uncomfortable thing because you will feel so completely unworthy.

Meanwhile another path will be offered that feels good and justifies you and makes you confident and comfortable.

So the trick is to have humility. Apparently to achieve this, a lifetime is required.

God creates humility,and you are a work in progress.

 

[ffg]

Its kind of mind blowing to think just 2 people and one single decision would effect the world and many trillions of lives/ souls for all of eternity…something does not sound right about that.
.

Another angle of dealing with this reality is to understand perpective…

Seems ‘mind blowing’ because sin is common for us…

Was sin common before the first sin?

Since the effect of 1 sin is so powerful, it should be a lesson for us to strive to be good.

That’s not to say we won’t sin, but understanding its effects are greater than we probably assume, should guide us toward thankfulness for Jesus and anything he put in place to assist us in fighting sin.

Which closes the divide (heals the relationship).

 

[ericc]

Its kind of mind blowing to think just 2 people and one single decision would effect the world and many trillions of lives/ souls for all of eternity…something does not sound right about that…

If the mistake wasn’t made, perhaps there won’t be trillions of lives in existence. The 2 would just live happily ever after.

Ive always sort of thought the power of Jesus dying on the cross for us would have been enough to reverse the original sin, like it did with every other sin, but it didnt.

Nothing get reversed. Time is always moving forward. But things do get fixed, gifts were extended, forgiveness is made available, salvation is made possible.

 

[GEddie]

If the mistake wasn’t made, perhaps there won’t be trillions of lives in existence. The 2 would just live happily ever after.

The number of human beings who have lived up to now is less than 100 billion.

And in a world where A&E didn’t die, where Abel didn’t get killed, where there was no flood, etc, there is no reason why there wouldn’t be many times more children born. Whether they would include the same people we know now is a question neither science nor philosophy can answer.

ICXC NIKA

 

[ericc]

The number of human beings who have lived up to now is less than 100 billion.

And in a world where A&E didn’t die, where Abel didn’t get killed, where there was no flood, etc, there is no reason why there wouldn’t be many times more children born. Whether they would include the same people we know now is a question neither science nor philosophy can answer.

ICXC NIKA

If they hadn’t fallen, would they remain clueless about making babies? The babies came after they had eaten of the forbidden fruit which made them more knowing. Before that, no kids. But they could have observed the animals…

 

[mikekle]

If they hadn’t fallen, would they remain clueless about making babies? The babies came after they had eaten of the forbidden fruit which made them more knowing. Before that, no kids. But they could have observed the animals…

Well, if they had not chosen to take the fruit, Im sure God would have somehow ensured they knew how to procreate and how important this was to do.

It is kind of fun to wonder about how such a world would be if they had not made that choice, and what our modern world would be like today. one thing, there would likely be MANY more people living on the planet.

 

[GEddie]

Well, if they had not chosen to take the fruit, Im sure God would have somehow ensured they knew how to procreate and how important this was to do.

It is kind of fun to wonder about how such a world would be if they had not made that choice, and what our modern world would be like today. one thing, there would likely be MANY more people living on the planet.

On the other hand, the world could hold more people, as there would be very few “needs” (no clothes, yeah!) requiring the use of land.

Presumably there would be no desertification, so more land would be usable. As to climatic zones, we can’t know.

ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

The adult human body innately “knows how to procreate” when in the presence of a suitable and receptive other adult human body. It’s in the DNA.

It is the cloudy head brought about by sinfulness and pride that murks up the waters with contraception, “alternative sexuality” and the like.

ICXC NIKA

 

[catholic1seeks]

If they hadn’t fallen, would they remain clueless about making babies? The babies came after they had eaten of the forbidden fruit which made them more knowing. Before that, no kids. But they could have observed the animals…

But A & E were made with reproductive systems…