Which denomination believes in this?

[Jennifer123]

Hi-

Trying to converse with a poster from another Catholic site who is claiming that Catholicism and other “trinity” religions are false primarily based on a belief of fallen angels and the Trinity.
I’m thinking this person may be JW? They haven’t stated specifically what denomination they are, but knowing would make things easier. Any ideas?

 

[Eden]

It sounds like Jehovah’s Witnesses. This CA article may help:

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0501coff.asp

 

[Huguenot]

Jennifer123:

Hi-

Trying to converse with a poster from another Catholic site who is claiming that Catholicism and other “trinity” religions are false primarily based on a belief of fallen angels and the Trinity.
I’m thinking this person may be JW? They haven’t stated specifically what denomination they are, but knowing would make things easier. Any ideas?

In Romania I know a denomination called “Unitarians”, they don’t believe in Trinity either ; I don’t know any “Western European” Unitarians, and I don’t know if there are Unitarians in the United States ( I’m from France ).
It is true that Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe in Trinity either …

 

[b_justb]

Jennifer123:

Hi-

Trying to converse with a poster from another Catholic site who is claiming that Catholicism and other “trinity” religions are false primarily based on a belief of fallen angels and the Trinity.
I’m thinking this person may be JW? They haven’t stated specifically what denomination they are, but knowing would make things easier. Any ideas?

JW’s, Mormons, Unitarians, and Oneness Pentecostals do not subscribe to the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Huguenot]

b_justb:

JW’s, Mormons, Unitarians, and Oneness Pentecostals do not subscribe to the doctrine of the Trinity.

I’ve never heard about Oneness Pentecostals, I don’t suppose there are any in France …

 

[Jennifer123]

Thanks all - I knew you would be able to help! This person really wants to prove through scripture that Satan doesn’t exist and then move onto proving the Trinity doesn’t exist either. I’m not sure this discussion will ultimately be fruitful, but I appreciate your help!

 

[Eden]

Jennifer123:

Thanks all - I knew you would be able to help! This person really wants to prove through scripture that Satan doesn’t exist and then move onto proving the Trinity doesn’t exist either. I’m not sure this discussion will ultimately be fruitful, but I appreciate your help!

May God bless you. Yes, I’m sure satan would like to convince everyone that neither he nor the Trinity exist. His work is made that much easier when we are not vigilant.

 

[flameburns623]

Huguenot:

I’ve never heard about Oneness Pentecostals, I don’t suppose there are any in France …

There are almost certainly Oneness Pentecostals in France, though I don’t know by what name they would go by. In America the largest group of Oneness Pentecostals is the United Pentecostal Church. Others would include many Protestant groups which speak of themselves as ‘Apostolic’–which should be distinguished from those such as Episcopalians who profess to have ‘apostolic succession’. A group which baptises ‘In the Name of Jesus Only’ would be a ‘Oneness’ sort of church. The doctrine is most commonly known today as ‘modalism’; historically it has been called Sabellianism among other thngs.

Oops! A google search turned up the following links:

epufrance.org/

theschoberts.org/links.htm

brainos.foreignmissions.com/

nowacki.foreignmissions.com/ME2/Sites/Default.asp

Hope this clarifies things!

 

[Huguenot]

flameburns623:

There are almost certainly Oneness Pentecostals in France, though I don’t know by what name they would go by. In America the largest group of Oneness Pentecostals is the United Pentecostal Church. Others would include many Protestant groups which speak of themselves as ‘Apostolic’–which should be distinguished from those such as Episcopalians who profess to have ‘apostolic succession’. A group which baptises ‘In the Name of Jesus Only’ would be a ‘Oneness’ sort of church. The doctrine is most commonly known today as ‘modalism’; historically it has been called Sabellianism among other thngs.

Oops! A google search turned up the following links:

epufrance.org/

theschoberts.org/links.htm

brainos.foreignmissions.com/

nowacki.foreignmissions.com/ME2/Sites/Default.asp

Hope this clarifies things!

Thanks a lot, you know French Evangelicals better than I do !!!
I’ve been to the first site , “United Pentocostals”, and have surfed on their site ; there is a kind of confession of faith, in which they say, among other things , that Jesus was and is God ; can one believe that Jesus is God without believing in the Trinity ? ( but some other passages are not so clear, like ( it’s not an exact quotation ) “in creation God manifested Himself as the Father, on the Earth He manifested Himself as the Son and, after the Ascencion, as the Holy Ghost”, as if the three persons of the Trinity couldn’t exist all at the same time …it doesn’t seem very clear to me what they mean .
Near my house there is a Pentocostal church, they believe in Trinity too.
I’ll go back to the United Pentecostal site when I have more time to see where they have churches, how many there are and so on …

 

[flameburns623]

Huguenot:

Thanks a lot, you know French Evangelicals better than I do !!!
I’ve been to the first site , “United Pentocostals”, and have surfed on their site ; there is a kind of confession of faith, in which they say, among other things , that Jesus was and is God ; can one believe that Jesus is God without believing in the Trinity ? ( but some other passages are not so clear, like ( it’s not an exact quotation ) “in creation God manifested Himself as the Father, on the Earth He manifested Himself as the Son and, after the Ascencion, as the Holy Ghost”, as if the three persons of the Trinity couldn’t exist all at the same time …it doesn’t seem very clear to me what they mean .
Near my house there is a Pentocostal church, they believe in Trinity too.
I’ll go back to the United Pentecostal site when I have more time to see where they have churches, how many there are and so on …

Modalists can and DO believe that Jesus is God, yet they do NOT believe in the Trinity. What they believe is that God is not always Jesus. That is to say, they believe that God exists in one of several ‘modes’, as either the Father, or as the Son, or as the Holy Spirit, but never as all three simultaneously. This is why modalism and Sabellianism are known as heresies, as false doctrines.

Not all Pentecostals are modalists. In fact the majority probably do teach and accept the doctrine of the Trinity. The United Pentecostal Church is the English name of one American denomination which happens to be modalistic. You might note however that many of the modalistic churches in the USA try very hard to disguise the differences between themselves and Trinitarian Christians. Some well-known American televangelists are Oneness Pentecostals who decline to be identified as such. Andre Crouch is one such person. TD Jakes is said to be another. Sometimes one must really nail down the language to distinguish Oneness Pentecostals from Trinitarian Christians.

Like most Americans I am geopolitically illiterate by choice. I know very little about France, mainly because they speak French over there and I don’t. I think they have a tower of some sort near one of their big cities, and I think they gave us some sort of a monument once, but apart from that I don’t know much else about France. (Hopefully you realise that I’m having a bit of fun here). It was relatively easy to surmise that there is some sort of a missionary outreach of larger Protestant denominations to France as there would be to most Western European countries by such denominations. The United Pentecost Church (UPC), although it is a heretical church, is relatively sizeable so this made it predictable there would be UPC missionaries there.

 

[Huguenot]

flameburns623:

Modalists can and DO believe that Jesus is God, yet they do NOT believe in the Trinity. What they believe is that God is not always Jesus. That is to say, they believe that God exists in one of several ‘modes’, as either the Father, or as the Son, or as the Holy Spirit, but never as all three simultaneously. This is why modalism and Sabellianism are known as heresies, as false doctrines.

Not all Pentecostals are modalists. In fact the majority probably do teach and accept the doctrine of the Trinity. The United Pentecostal Church is the English name of one American denomination which happens to be modalistic. You might note however that many of the modalistic churches in the USA try very hard to disguise the differences between themselves and Trinitarian Christians. Some well-known American televangelists are Oneness Pentecostals who decline to be identified as such. Andre Crouch is one such person. TD Jakes is said to be another. Sometimes one must really nail down the language to distinguish Oneness Pentecostals from Trinitarian Christians.

Like most Americans I am geopolitically illiterate by choice. I know very little about France, mainly because they speak French over there and I don’t. I think they have a tower of some sort near one of their big cities, and I think they gave us some sort of a monument once, but apart from that I don’t know much else about France. (Hopefully you realise that I’m having a bit of fun here). It was relatively easy to surmise that there is some sort of a missionary outreach of larger Protestant denominations to France as there would be to most Western European countries by such denominations. The United Pentecost Church (UPC), although it is a heretical church, is relatively sizeable so this made it predictable there would be UPC missionaries there.

Thanks for your precisions … I think that must be the case for the site I visited, because the few sentences I’ve read really make it sound like they don’t believe the three “persons” of the Trinity can exist as God at the same time …
Of course I understood you were joking !!! ( about our “tower” …and so on … )

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Jennifer123:

Hi-

Trying to converse with a poster from another Catholic site who is claiming that Catholicism and other “trinity” religions are false primarily based on a belief of fallen angels and the Trinity.
I’m thinking this person may be JW? They haven’t stated specifically what denomination they are, but knowing would make things easier. Any ideas?

Hi Jennifer, if you are dealing with Martin aka zman you are dealing with homean arian doctrine of the Seventh Day Adventist fundamentalist type. The earily Seventh Day Adventists were indirectly influenced by unitarians of boston through the christian connection connexion movement. If it is Martin, he has never been able to refute the Isaiah 43:10 argument.

Basically, homean arians believe that the son of god was formed before creation and is therefore not a part of creation. They believe that the son of god is divine, but that he had a beginning. Isaiah 43:10 says clearly in hebrew that no gods will be formed, birthed, made or whatever. The same hebrew is used where it says God formed me in my mothers womb.

Martin, is not open to hearing truth, so don’t waste time with him.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Jennifer123:

Thanks all - I knew you would be able to help! This person really wants to prove through scripture that Satan doesn’t exist and then move onto proving the Trinity doesn’t exist either. I’m not sure this discussion will ultimately be fruitful, but I appreciate your help!

The Christadelphians do not believe that satan is a fallen angel.
They think that satan is basically our sin nature. If that is the case then who tempted Jesus in the wilderness? If Jesus had a sin nature as their teaching implies then Jesus was not sinless, nor a perfect atonement without spot and thus the atonement is useless.

1 Peter 1:19
but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

expect him to go with

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

followed by Jesus was tempted therefore he is not god.

answers.org/theology/is_god_tempted.html
google.com/search?hl=en&q=God+tempted+tested+Jesus

 

[carol_marie]

If they don’t believe in Satan - they are not Jehovah’s Witnesses.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

THE DEVIL IN THE MIRROR?

One item listed in the Christadelphian Doctrines to be Rejected, which is included in their Statement of Faith, is their denial of a personal devil. Indeed, one writer states “the idea of an external, super-natural source of spiritual evil . . .lie in paganism.” This evil comes from man “as being the originator of sin, and evil” and that “biblical labels ‘satan’ [sic] and ‘devil’, are in fact common terms meaning a generic ‘enemy’, ‘adversary’ or ‘slanderer’” (Response to Mainstream Christianity: The Source of Evil, p.1 christadelphia.org, accessed 1-16-2000).

The denial of a real, personal devil is not without major problems. Indeed, Jesus believed in the reality of such a creature and had numerous encounters with him and his dominions. One only has to go to the temptation sequence to verify Christ’s encounter with creation’s primary adversary the devil, Satan (cf. Matt 4:1-11; Mark 1:13; Luke 4:1-14. In Matthew’s account both devil (vs. 1, 5, 8, 10) and Satan (vs. 13) are used interchangeably (also note Rev 12:9; 20:2). However, if one were to believe the Christadelphians, they claim that the word Satan “has been used in various ways which indicate that it is not ‘another name for the Devil,’ as some suggest” (The Truth About Lucifer, vol.41 no.6, p.11, n.d.). Well, if Jesus declared Satan as the name of the devil, then we should too!

Other passages include Jesus witnessing Satan’s falling from heaven (Luke 10:18). How is one to make sense of the passage where Jesus tells Peter that Satan wants to sift him like wheat, if there is no devil? (Luke 22:31). Scripture describes Satan entering Judas the night of our Lord’s betrayal (John 13:27). If Satan was merely man’s own evil, then how does it come from the outside to the inner man?

  Furthermore, the apostle Paul explains to the Corinthian congregation that he was going to turn one of their sinning members over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh (1 Cor 5:5; also, 1 Tim 1:20).  Once again, it is hard to imagine this Satan as a non-entity.  If there is any doubt at this point, read Jude 9.  In that passage archangel Michael is arguing with the devil over the body of Moses.  Left to the Christadelphian understanding of the devil, Michael would have to be having a dispute against “fallen human nature, with its evil propensities . . .” as that is exactly how the devil is defined (15).  Indeed, each of us would see the devil in the mirror each time we looked at our reflection.  One need not go any further as the above passages clearly teach us that there exists an evil creature, fallen from heaven, whose name is Satan.

nowthink.com/devil_in_the_mirror_and_other_ch.htm

Was Jesus’ sacrifice blemished according to Christadelphian theology?
carm.org/christadelphian/blemish.htm

Can the Christadelphian Jesus with a fallen nature save anyone?
carm.org/christadelphian/delph_Jesus_save.htm

google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=christadelphian+Jesus+sin+nature

Response to Mainstream Christianity: The Nature of Christ
christadelphia.org/christ.htm

The Watchtower, Jehovah Witnesses printed the Christadelphian Bible known as the Emphatic Diaglott by Wilson.
google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=EMPHATIC+Diaglott+christadelphian

 

[Jennifer123]

Wow - so very interesting. I had never heard of this before, thanks for the information.
Daniel - I noticed you responded to him on the site I PM’d you. I’m interested to see where this goes…

 

[rlg94086]

I didn’t think the Unitarians had any real, set doctrine…don’t they toss all the religions together into a blender and hit the ‘pulse’ button a bunch of times.

b_justb:

JW’s, Mormons, Unitarians, and Oneness Pentecostals do not subscribe to the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[carol_marie]

rlg94086:

I didn’t think the Unitarians had any real, set doctrine…don’t they toss all the religions together into a blender and hit the ‘pulse’ button a bunch of times.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The text that is giving the Christadelphian a hard time is

Tobit 12
12: Now therefore, when thou didst pray, and Sara thy daughter in law, I did bring the remembrance of your prayers before the Holy One: and when thou didst bury the dead, I was with thee likewise.
13: And when thou didst not delay to rise up, and leave thy dinner, to go and cover the dead, thy good deed was not hid from me: but I was with thee.
14: And now God hath sent me to heal thee and Sara thy daughter in law.
**15: I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One. **
16: Then they were both troubled, and fell upon their faces: for they feared.
17: But he said unto them, Fear not, for it shall go well with you; praise God therefore.
18: For not of any favour of mine, but by the will of our God I came; wherefore praise him for ever.
19: All these days I did appear unto you; but I did neither eat nor drink, but ye did see a vision.
20: Now therefore give God thanks: for I go up to him that sent me; but write all things which are done in a book.
21: And when they arose, they saw him no more.
22: Then they confessed the great and wonderful works of God, and how the angel of the Lord had appeared unto them.

etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvTobi.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=12&division=div1

All he could do was yell about “jewish myths” — I don’t see the word myth in the above text do you?

Even if one does not believ Tobit is inspired, Todbit does denomstrate that historically Jewish people believed in angels.

All the Christadelphian has been able to do so far is post pages from christadelphian books.

 

[Jennifer123]

Daniel Marsh:

The text that is giving the Christadelphian a hard time is

Tobit 12
12: Now therefore, when thou didst pray, and Sara thy daughter in law, I did bring the remembrance of your prayers before the Holy One: and when thou didst bury the dead, I was with thee likewise.
13: And when thou didst not delay to rise up, and leave thy dinner, to go and cover the dead, thy good deed was not hid from me: but I was with thee.
14: And now God hath sent me to heal thee and Sara thy daughter in law.
**15: I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One. **
16: Then they were both troubled, and fell upon their faces: for they feared.
17: But he said unto them, Fear not, for it shall go well with you; praise God therefore.
18: For not of any favour of mine, but by the will of our God I came; wherefore praise him for ever.
19: All these days I did appear unto you; but I did neither eat nor drink, but ye did see a vision.
20: Now therefore give God thanks: for I go up to him that sent me; but write all things which are done in a book.
21: And when they arose, they saw him no more.
22: Then they confessed the great and wonderful works of God, and how the angel of the Lord had appeared unto them.

etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvTobi.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=12&division=div1

All he could do was yell about “jewish myths” — I don’t see the word myth in the above text do you?

Even if one does not believ Tobit is inspired, Todbit does denomstrate that historically Jewish people believed in angels.

All the Christadelphian has been able to do so far is post pages from christadelphian books.

Yes - he seems to be overwhelmed, I pray that he will be humble enough to see his error. Such good work you are doing!!