Which protestant denomination is most close in doctrine to the catholic church?

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You are exactly right on all counts. It is also true that the nutty stuff, the outrageous stuff, didn’t make it into the Lutheran confessions. Why? For the reasons you mentioned. Usually it is hyperbole, or sarcasm, often done out of frustration or anger (as was the case with his boasting regarding translation). The nutty and outrageous stuff isn’t particularly important to us as Lutherans, and I suspect much of the doctrinal stuff isn’t particularly important to non-Lutheran protestants.
Jon, with all respect, I must disagree. One of the very examples that Topper gave, viz., that the pope is the Antichrist, is featured quite prominently in the Book of Concord. I think most objective observers would view this identification as incorrect first of all, but also incredibly immature. It reads like a middle-school-level insult. The Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope states that the papacy contains all the marks of the Antichrist. What are the marks of the Antichrist? St. John states that the Antichrist denies the Father and Som, denies that Christ has come in the flesh and that Jesus is the Christ. Even those who hate the pope will have to admit that none of these charges apply to any of the popes. Why then did the Lutherans say that the Pope was the Antichrist? Why does the Book of Concord say that the pope is Satan? It makes it impossible for me to take the Reformers seriously because they look like little children throwing a temper tantrum. How far can ecumenism go when Lutherans will not repudiate this? Even the Presbyterians struck it out of the Westminster Confession in the Eighteenth Century. It is time for the Lutherans to catch up.
 
I provide you, once again the link to your own Church’s opinion of Martin Luther as articulated in the document. Is it up to you to read or not. 🤷 And while you are at it, you might also want to read Pope Francis’ comments to those who seek “idealogy”. Powerful words. Perhaps you can reconcile your statements with that of the Catholic Church?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=846769

See below:
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Merry Christmas Evangel,
The irony of having a Lutheran recommend that a Catholic follow Catholic leadership is not lost on me. When did you guys take up that attitude?😉 Oh but if only Luther had followed that same advice!

I will be out of town for a few days and plan on reading “From Conflict to Communion”. I have a question for you though. Isn’t it true that the official position of the Lutheran church is that the papacy either somehow is or is somehow ‘associated with’ the anti-Christ? This is a yes or no question.

I have to tell you that I find that very offensive, and maybe the ecumenical efforts of our two churches will result in real progress. But IMHO, the Lutheran church will have to repudiate that “teaching” before anything of any significance takes place. Withdrawing that statement would go a long way towards some kind of communion.

What are the chances the Lutheran church will do the right thing here?

May God Bless You Evangel, Topper
 
Topper, refer to Part II, Article 4 of the Smalcald Articles in addition to Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope. Both are found in the Book of Concord.
 
Jon, with all respect, I must disagree. One of the very examples that Topper gave, viz., that the pope is the Antichrist, is featured quite prominently in the Book of Concord. I think most objective observers would view this identification as incorrect first of all, but also incredibly immature. It reads like a middle-school-level insult. The Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope states that the papacy contains all the marks of the Antichrist. What are the marks of the Antichrist? St. John states that the Antichrist denies the Father and Som, denies that Christ has come in the flesh and that Jesus is the Christ. Even those who hate the pope will have to admit that none of these charges apply to any of the popes. Why then did the Lutherans say that the Pope was the Antichrist? Why does the Book of Concord say that the pope is Satan? It makes it impossible for me to take the Reformers seriously because they look like little children throwing a temper tantrum. How far can ecumenism go when Lutherans will not repudiate this? Even the Presbyterians struck it out of the Westminster Confession in the Eighteenth Century. It is time for the Lutherans to catch up.
Anti-Christ. You keep saying that word. To quote a great movie: I do not think it means what you think it means. See Jon’s post above. The term, as used by the Reformers, meant ‘Someone or some authority that obscured the gospel.’ It does not necessarily refer to some singular, End Times being. Don’t confuse the ancient Lutheran understanding with modern-day “Left Behind” filth. Anti-Christ is a serious charge, no doubt, but not so outrageous - particularly when one considers the corruption of those who held the See of Rome at the time of the Reformation.

For those who wish to educate themselves, “Papal Primacy and the Universal Church - Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue V” is useful.
 
I do know a few things about the Antichrist thanks to Sacred Scripture. If the Reformers used your definition, it appears that it did not make it into the Confessions. Luther says in his Smalcald Articles that the pope is “the very Antichrist” (2.4.10) and applies the prophecy of the Serpent in Revelation 12 directly to the pope (2.4.4). Moreover, if being the Anti-Christ merely means obscuring the Gospel, then the Lutherans charges are void because the pope had never obscured the Gospel. The Lutherans said that he prevented them from preaching salvation by faith alone only because they mistakenly applied every criticism of their teaching as an attack on that one doctrine regardless of the context. Want to celebrate daily mass? Well, for Dr. Luther daily mass is an attack on faith alone, unknown to the Fathers and repugnant to the faith of the Catholic Church. Daily mass apparently is an attempt to merit justification and not trusting in Christ through faith alone.
 
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Merry Christmas Evangel,
The irony of having a Lutheran recommend that a Catholic follow Catholic leadership is not lost on me. When did you guys take up that attitude?😉 Oh but if only Luther had followed that same advice!

I will be out of town for a few days and plan on reading “From Conflict to Communion”. I have a question for you though. Isn’t it true that the official position of the Lutheran church is that the papacy either somehow is or is somehow ‘associated with’ the anti-Christ? This is a yes or no question.

I have to tell you that I find that very offensive, and maybe the ecumenical efforts of our two churches will result in real progress. But IMHO, the Lutheran church will have to repudiate that “teaching” before anything of any significance takes place. Withdrawing that statement would go a long way towards some kind of communion.

What are the chances the Lutheran church will do the right thing here?

May God Bless You Evangel, Topper
I’ve learned so much on this site including that I can be very arrogant 😦 Please forgive my sarcasm. My Catholic daughter-in-law will take me to task tomorrow].

Keep in mind that I am among several who our faithful to the Lutheran Church though some Lutherans may despise my Synod.

My understanding of the Dialogue is that the foundation of the Catholic faith is agreed upon. And you are correct, Lutherans are deeply contrite over ‘Anti-Christ’ comments of Martin Luther and Lutheran wars against the Jews, Anabaptists, common people. Ecclesiastic apologies/ days of prayer have occurred thanks be to God.

Merry ChristMass to you, Topper
 
That is precisely what I didn’t do or say. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I’ve not seen nor heard this before. It’s old news, Topper. And I choose not to site anything the CC has done, simply because it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter, Topper. The leaders of our communions know all of this stuff, and as EC points out, they aren’t the issue of dialogue. The differences in theology and doctrine are. The other things, the things you seem to want to talk about, are apologetics stuff. So, ok, this is an apologetics forum. Knock yourself out, but I’m not playing the game. There are too many good things in our two communions, good things going on between our communions, to play the Father O’Hare/Jack Chick stuff.

God bless you as well, and a Blessed Christmas to you and yours,
Jon
Hi Jon,

Thanks for your response,

I am happy that you knew about the execution of the reluctant wives thing (and am still waiting for the criticism of Luther that you claim you offer ‘when needed’.) You infer that the Catholic Church or Catholic theologians have written as poorly, leaving that impression, but failing to document those generalized accusations. I know of no such evidence and I don’t think you do either. If you do, please post it.

You say that these issues are not part of the EC dialogue, hinting I guess that these topics should not be discussed by anybody. These issues are the very things that separate us. If you think they can be swept under the carpet and we can all move forward as if they have been resolved - well - I disagree. The only way to deal with these things is to actually deal with them.

I am perfectly aware that the leaders of our communions know all of this history, but the laypeople do not. Personally, I believe that Protestants and especially Lutherans deserve to know the truth about Luther. Don’t you? Or would you rather they not?

May God Continue to Bless You and Yours Jon and Have a Wonderful Holy Christmas, Topper
 
I’ve learned so much on this site including that I can be very arrogant 😦 Please forgive my sarcasm. My Catholic daughter-in-law will take me to task tomorrow].

Keep in mind that I am among several who our faithful to the Lutheran Church though some Lutherans may despise my Synod.

My understanding of the Dialogue is that the foundation of the Catholic faith is agreed upon. And you are correct, Lutherans are deeply contrite over ‘Anti-Christ’ comments of Martin Luther and Lutheran wars against the Jews, Anabaptists, common people. Ecclesiastic apologies/ days of prayer have occurred thanks be to God.

Merry ChristMass to you, Topper
Hi Evangel,

Please show this post to your Catholic daughter in law.

This is a Get Out Of Jail Card

Signed - Topper17, a Catholic as Faithful To the Church as I Can Be.

Also tell her you deserve an extra hug for being declared “One of the Good Ones”

May God Continue to Bless You and Yours and Merry Christmas
 
Hi Jon,

Thanks for your response,

I am happy that you knew about the execution of the reluctant wives thing (and am still waiting for the criticism of Luther that you claim you offer ‘when needed’.) You infer that the Catholic Church or Catholic theologians have written as poorly, leaving that impression, but failing to document those generalized accusations. I know of no such evidence and I don’t think you do either. If you do, please post it.

You say that these issues are not part of the EC dialogue, hinting I guess that these topics should not be discussed by anybody. These issues are the very things that separate us. If you think they can be swept under the carpet and we can all move forward as if they have been resolved - well - I disagree. The only way to deal with these things is to actually deal with them.

I am perfectly aware that the leaders of our communions know all of this history, but the laypeople do not. Personally, I believe that Protestants and especially Lutherans deserve to know the truth about Luther. Don’t you? Or would you rather they not?

May God Continue to Bless You and Yours Jon and Have a Wonderful Holy Christmas, Topper
The groundwork laid out by Benedict and the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity suggested the real possibility of eucharistic hospitality especially on special occasions such as the Reformation anniversary.

But Francis has raised anthropological and ethical concerns so conservative Lutherans like the LCMS should seriously increase talks with the Vatican.
 
Anti-Christ. You keep saying that word. To quote a great movie: I do not think it means what you think it means. See Jon’s post above. The term, as used by the Reformers, meant ‘Someone or some authority that obscured the gospel.’ It does not necessarily refer to some singular, End Times being. Don’t confuse the ancient Lutheran understanding with modern-day “Left Behind” filth. Anti-Christ is a serious charge, no doubt, but not so outrageous - particularly when one considers the corruption of those who held the See of Rome at the time of the Reformation.

For those who wish to educate themselves, “Papal Primacy and the Universal Church - Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue V” is useful.
Hi Steido,

I hope you have a Blessed and Holy Christmas,

Hi Steido,

I am fully familiar with the Lutheran tendency to dismiss the nutty and anti-Christian things that Luther said as being hyperbole or rhetorical or sarcasm or just “Good Ole Marty Being Marty”. I am also aware that people can create strawmen and redefine terms so as to make Marty ‘look better’ to our supposedly more sophisticated ears. You seem to believe that we should not take Luther’s “anti-christ accusation” against the Papacy so seriously, supposedly because it only means “Someone or some authority that obscured the gospel”. It seems that this is an important distinction for you, but in fact, Luther could not have been more clear about his beliefs about the Papacy being the anti-Christ. In all of my reading on Luther and the Reformation, I have never seen the spin that you put on this subject and I am very interested. Where did you come up with this idea? I would like to know because I want to see whether it was advanced by a reputable scholar.

As for what Luther actually thought about the papacy and the anti-Christ, the quotes from Protestant Scholars on the subject would fill volumes:

“With a growing conviction that the papacy is actually an instrument of the antichrist, Luther states his ecclesiological arguments ever more pointedly. The apocalyptic tone of his style becomes more pronounced. He feels himself increasingly dragged into the battle between God and Satan for the ultimate rule. This apocalyptic atmosphere of course leads Luther into making statements which in this form are no longer tenable in our modern ecumenical dialogue and which for that reason should not be repeated at all.” Markus Wreidt, (Lutheran Professor of Historical Theology) “Luther’s Theology”, in “The Cambridge Companion to Martin Luther”

“In general Luther viewed the history of his own time as the realization of the apocalyptic predictions of Daniel and Revelation. The events of his age, he was convinced, were certain signs that the End Time was at hand…….This apocalyptic vision plays a major role in many of the polemics of the older Luther.” Edwards, “Luther’s Last Battles”, pg. 97

“Apocalptic views and his vision of his own role in the final drama of the world play a highly significant role in his polemics. At this point there is need only to consider whether these views might in themselves be regarded as symptoms of psychological imbalance: and odd mixture of paranoia and delusions of grandeur. The older Luther did firmly believe that he was living on the eve of the Last Judgment. Once the papacy had been exposed by the Reformation as the antichrist seated within the church, the final battle had been joined. Satan had unleashed all his minions in a last, desperate attempt to defeat the servants of Christ. Luther’s polemics were a part of this final struggle.” Edwards, “Luther’s Last Battles”, pg. 97

I have actually met a few people who today believe that the papacy is the antichrist. However, virtually all Christians today are far too intelligent and Scripturally sophisticated to believe such garbage. But Luther wasn’t. What would we think of a Christian leader today who spouted such nonsense about the papacy and believe and acted like he was in the End Times? Lutheran college President and Luther Scholar provides the only plausible answer by questioning Luther’s psychological balance. (Hey, if you don’t like it, take it up with Edwards).

Luther believed that Scripture was exceedingly clear on the major issues (like the papacy being the antichrist). As a result, if you didn’t agree with him, you were either lying (because you knew for a fact that he was right), or, you were willingly and knowingly in league with Satan. If somebody came to the forefront today teaching these kinds of things and acting the way Luther acted, would we be willing to follow him as he charged off into uncharted theological waters, seemingly not finding a doctrine that he didn’t need to alter? Should we be willing to follow someone who had based so much of their theology on such a poor understanding of Scripture? I’m just sayin.

“Luther hated the pope as antichrist and Catholics as the agents of Satan.” Edwards, “Luther’s Last Battles”, pg. 36

So – it’s not just the popes that Luther hated, and wanted everybody else to hate, but individual Catholics themselves, especially those who defended the papacy. My guess is that I would not be invited to dinner in Wittenberg if I were in the area at the time.

In summary - in contradiction to your statement, when Luther used the term ‘anti-christ’ in regard to the papacy, he did not mean something so mild as “someone or some authority that obscured the gospel.” To him, there was a much more “real” and physical meaning. You can wish that that is not true if you like, but Luther’s thoughts on the matter are much too well documented.

God Bless You Steido, Topper
 
Anti-Christ. You keep saying that word. To quote a great movie: I do not think it means what you think it means. See Jon’s post above. The term, as used by the Reformers, meant ‘Someone or some authority that obscured the gospel.’ It does not necessarily refer to some singular, End Times being. Don’t confuse the ancient Lutheran understanding with modern-day “Left Behind” filth. Anti-Christ is a serious charge, no doubt, but not so outrageous - particularly when one considers the corruption of those who held the See of Rome at the time of the Reformation.

For those who wish to educate themselves, “Papal Primacy and the Universal Church - Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue V” is useful.
True, but the fact is that in catechesis, and for the average Lutheran in the pew, the term is rarely heard, certainly not from the pulpit. The problem is the term has taken on new meaning in the last 100 - 150 years that the Reformers probably did not intend.

Jon
Well, within Catholicism, the “futurist” view has been around for a while, going right back to the Counter-Reformation. (Of course, how successful that particular part of the Counter-Reformation was, or even whether it has back-fired on us, can be debated – but not tonight, at least not by me. :))
 
The groundwork laid out by Benedict and the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity suggested the real possibility of eucharistic hospitality especially on special occasions such as the Reformation anniversary.

But Francis has raised anthropological and ethical concerns so conservative Lutherans like the LCMS should seriously increase talks with the Vatican.
Hi EC,

Thanks for your response.

What do you mean by ‘anthropological and ethical concerns’?

Merry Christmas, Topper
 
Hi Evangel,

Please show this post to your Catholic daughter in law.

This is a Get Out Of Jail Card

Signed - Topper17, a Catholic as Faithful To the Church as I Can Be.
You just gave me a great Christmas movie idea: an ordinary Catholic suddenly gets a kind of “xray vision” that shows him which Catholics are as faithful to the Church as they can be, and which one aren’t.

(Can you believe Shyamalan doesn’t return my calls?)
 
Topper, refer to Part II, Article 4 of the Smalcald Articles in addition to Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope. Both are found in the Book of Concord.
Thanks Q,

I appreciate that and have a wonderful and blessed Christmas,

Topper17

I will be leaving for three days starting the 26th and will see you after I get back.
 
Episcopalian & Lutheran “emergent” Anglo-Catholic here. 👋

Except for being more liberal theologically and socially than Catholicism allows for, we’re pretty close…
 
" Do you believe that the Pope will resign his office as Luther once suggested?"

of course not -Bishop of Rome is an important see

the key issue is that the Pope will not give up His authority and thus no reunification with Anglicans/ Missouri Synod Lutherans is likely
I’m not going to argue with that; but I would point out that it is also unlikely that we will see an Anglican-Orthodox or Lutheran-Orthodox reunion.
 
Interesting segment of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue on Papal Primacy and the Universal Church [1973]
Such a Petrine function has been exercised in some degree by various officeholders, for example by bishops, patriarchs, and church presidents. However, the single most notable representative of this Ministry toward the church universal, both in duration and geographical scope, has been the bishop of Rome. The Reformers did not totally reject all aspects of the papal expression of the Petrine function, but only what they regarded as its abuses. They hoped for a reform of the papacy precisely in order to preserve the unity of the church. Melanchthon held that “for the sake of peace and general unity among Christians” a superiority over other bishops could be conceded to the pope.5 For many years Lutherans hoped for an ecumenical council that would reform the papacy. They continued to concede to the pope all the legitimate spiritual powers of a bishop of his diocese, in this case, Rome. They even granted the propriety of his exercising a larger jurisdiction by human right over communities that had by their own will placed themselves under him.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/attitudes-papal-primacy.cfm
 
Hi Steido,

I hope you have a Blessed and Holy Christmas,
You as well, Topper. Our Savior is born, and through Him all Christians are redeemed! Let us all rejoice in sharing at least that joy.
Hi Steido,

I am fully familiar with the Lutheran tendency to dismiss the nutty and anti-Christian things that Luther said as being hyperbole or rhetorical or sarcasm or just “Good Ole Marty Being Marty”. ** I am also aware that people can create strawmen and redefine terms so as to make Marty ‘look better’ to our supposedly more sophisticated ears.**
Indeed, this seems to go both ways. There is a tendency by less-learned folk to fall into polemics rather than discuss the actual issues that divide. Look, Topper, there’s no point in taking something that is clearly not an issue and blowing it out of proportion. And I’ve not set up “straw men” or sugarcoated anything. Instead, I have been mindful of the 8th Commandment, which bids us not to slander or lie about our neighbor, but instead to understand our neighbor’s words in the kindest possible construction.
You seem to believe that we should not take Luther’s “anti-christ accusation” against the Papacy so seriously,
I said literally the opposite. “Anti-Christ is a serious charge, no doubt…”
supposedly because it only means “Someone or some authority that obscured the gospel”. It seems that this is an important distinction for you, but in fact, Luther could not have been more clear about his beliefs about the Papacy being the anti-Christ. In all of my reading on Luther and the Reformation, I have never seen the spin that you put on this subject and I am very interested. Where did you come up with this idea? I would like to know because I want to see whether it was advanced by a reputable scholar.
I’ve not “come up with” anything. I’m a layperson; I’ve not been assigned the power to create doctrine in the way that your communion ascribes to the pope. No Lutheran can. This is the teaching of the Churches of the Augsburg Confession, as I’ve discussed ad nauseum (apparently on deaf ears):
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11190415#post11190415 Pay special mind to my post and Ben Johnson’s.
As for what Luther actually thought about the papacy and the anti-Christ, the quotes from Protestant Scholars on the subject would fill volumes:

“With a growing conviction that the papacy is actually an instrument of the antichrist, Luther states his ecclesiological arguments ever more pointedly. The apocalyptic tone of his style becomes more pronounced. He feels himself increasingly dragged into the battle between God and Satan for the ultimate rule. This apocalyptic atmosphere of course leads Luther into making statements which in this form are no longer tenable in our modern ecumenical dialogue and which for that reason should not be repeated at all.” Markus Wreidt, (Lutheran Professor of Historical Theology) “Luther’s Theology”, in “The Cambridge Companion to Martin Luther”
I don’t think Wreidt has said anything that either of us would disagree with. As for Edwards - he’s about as Lutheran in his theology as Fr. Greg Reynolds is Catholic. I’d prefer if we let Confessional Lutherans explain what Lutherans mean when Lutherans define a term for use by Lutherans - or better yet, look to the Confessions! Topper, what point is there in falling on polemics - polemics that do not define doctrine for either of us? Let it die, friend, and focus on the part that matters: doctrine.
I have actually met a few people who today believe that the papacy is the antichrist.
According to the Lutheran Confessions, Office of Pope acts anti-to-Christ when the Papacy:
(1)Claims for himself [in the first place] that by divine right he is [supreme] above all bishops and pastors [in all Christendom],
(2)Adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.], and
(3)Says that to believe this is necessary for salvation.

Praise be to God that number 2 no longer happens - and even greater praise that the goodly men who have served as Bishop of Rome in recent years have been true men of God! But insofar as numbers 1 and 3 still take place, I guess I am one of ‘those’ people.

Continued…
 
Continued…
Luther believed that Scripture was exceedingly clear on the major issues (like the papacy being the antichrist). As a result, if you didn’t agree with him, you were either lying (because you knew for a fact that he was right), or, you were willingly and knowingly in league with Satan. If somebody came to the forefront today teaching these kinds of things and acting the way Luther acted, would we be willing to follow him as he charged off into uncharted theological waters, seemingly not finding a doctrine that he didn’t need to alter? Should we be willing to follow someone who had based so much of their theology on such a poor understanding of Scripture? I’m just sayin.
IF Luther believed as you suggest, then it certainly is a good thing Lutherans follow the Confessions and not Martin Luther, isn’t it? It appears trouble can seep in when we entrust all matters of doctrine, faith and morals to one human.
In summary - in contradiction to your statement, when Luther used the term ‘anti-christ’ in regard to the papacy, he did not mean something so mild as “someone or some authority that obscured the gospel.” To him, there was a much more “real” and physical meaning. You can wish that that is not true if you like, but Luther’s thoughts on the matter are much too well documented.
There is nothing mild about obscuring the Gospel. It is a serious charge. Luther, personally, may very well have interpreted the end to be near - bully for him. It doesn’t change what the Confessions teach.
God Bless You Steido, Topper
And you as well, Topper. Let us pray for a tomorrow where our laity see each other as our leadership does - as Christian allies in a broken world.
 
“Regarding the Pope I hold that, if he would allow the Gospel, his superiority over the bishops which he has otherwise, is conceded to him by human right also by us, for the sake of the peace and general unity of those Christians who are also under him, and may be under him hereafter.” - Phillip Melancthon, author of Apologia Augustana.

I think that sums it up rather nicely, for Lutherans.
 
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